I'd like to breed from my golden retriever bitch.

[thicketofstars]

I have a six year golden retriever bitch. She is, and has always been, perfect in every way. We would like to breed from her and have a few questions for the mumsnet gurus...

1. She was KC registered as a puppy by the breeder. We never completed the transfer of ownership form until tonight, when I completed it online. Although I haven't received a letter of confirmation yet, the process appeared to go through smoothly. HOWEVER, there was a note at the bottom of the page saying 'This service is only available for dogs registered after 7th of July 2008.' My dog was born on 19th of April, 2008 and was already registered by the time we bought her on 12th of June. Does anyone know anything about this or how long we can expect to wait for confirmation?
2. We have put the wheels in motion for the recommended eye and hip tests. We understand this is mandatory to be an assured breeder. We will be going ahead with these tests anyway but are confused about whether they are obligatory to be able to register the litter?
3. Does anyone know the wait period between getting the X rays done and receiving the official score?
4. We are not breeding for the money but because we believe our dog is one in a million. However, we understand that the price for a service (is that how the term is used??) is the cost of one puppy. What does a retriever puppy sell for at the moment?
5. We're having difficulty tracking down a retriever stud dog close to where we live. We've looked at the KC register and 'champdog'. Are we missing any other key websites?

Thanks so much and sorry for the length of this post!

If your dog is a perfect example of her breed, why haven't you shown her?
Is her conformation sound, as well as her personality?
Six is too old to breed, honestly. Perhaps get a puppy from along the same lines and start again, showing and then if successful, breeding?
My dog is Kc registered from very well known bloodlines. I have been asked in the past many times if he is up for stud but I couldn't in my heart let him be studded out knowing that one of his offspring might end up in a rescue home.
Would you be willing to take back one of the puppies at any age, should their owners be unable to care for them any longer, as that is what responsible breeders are known to do?

Skinheadmermaid I haven't shown her because (a) very difficult with a toddler and (b) rather remote location. But yes, I would most certainly accept a puppy/dog back and would make 100% sure buyers knew this (and would carry out a home check, too). And I do know that this is what breeders should do!

Leaving aside the matter of my dog's age for a moment...a lot has been said on this thread about bloodlines. Posters claiming to be respected breeders (and I believe them) explained that they would only breed from a dog who (among other things) had absolutely stellar bloodlines. What I'm going to say now won't impress those who think it's wrong to breed from a dog when there are so many others who are unwanted. It won't impress the breeders either. Next time I choose a golden retriever bitch, I will go out of my way to ensure she does not have a 'brilliant' pedigree. Although there are may well be many reasons why 'backyard breeding' is wrong, breeding dogs who aren't champions isn't one of them. I care about having a dog who represents the breed well in terms of general characteristics, health and temperament. We don't all have to share the same value system as a commercial breeder hoping to produce a champion and/or expensive puppies. The current model of trying to improve the breed with each successive generation (through selective breeding) hasn't resulted in an improved breed. All the hip scoring and DNA testing in the world won't alter the fact that some of the outcomes linked to extremely selective breeding are simply undesirable. Looking at the big picture, there are ways in which a professional breeder doesn't necessarily have the edge on an scrupulous private dog owner in terms of what's best for the breed.

I've already responded to posters who felt that we should all be rehoming rescue dogs. One of the reasons dogs end up in a rescue centre is because a family went out and chose the wrong dog. Send all of these families home with a rescue dog and they'll end up back there. But they might do great with a dog whose temperament is likely to be x and who has a clean slate from day one. I have personal experience of successfully rehabilitating troubled dogs - I know what it takes. Many people aren't in a position to do it and are probably wise in deciding not to take the level of risk that comes with a dog with an unknown temperament and unknown history. Of course everyone who can should do it, but if you can't, then you shouldn't. Our golden retriever is everything we expected that she would be and we can give her the home she needs.

After some test results today, I've decided not to breed from my retriever. A health condition has been picked up by the scans, meaning that there is a slight possibility her chances of coping with a pregnancy would be further reduced. We were always going to go through with the necessary health checks, always going to take medical advice, always going to consult with experienced breeders and always going to follow the advice of professionals who we knew we could trust.

Mumsnetters, you are very clever but sometimes your way of relating is not clever. MNHQ seems to know this and I certainly know it...please, please change.

I'm pleased you've decided not to breed OP, and I hope the health issue isn't going to cause your dog any problems. I'm still not sure why, if you're surrounded by all these professionals and experts - breeders, vets, the whole gamut - you felt the need to ask fairly basic questions on here which ang of your professionals should have been able to answdr when you have such a low opinion of our collective knowledge to start with?

any and answer

I am glad you have chosen not to put your dog through this. Enjoy her for the lovely girl she is.

Mumsnetters, you are very clever but sometimes your way of relating is not clever. MNHQ seems to know this and I certainly know it...please, please change

I most certainly wasn't trying to be 'clever' and I have no interest in 'relating' to you. I strongly disagree with all unnecessary breeding whilst dogs are dying every day for want of a home. MNHQ have never so much as warned me for my style of posting, and as this is their site, not yours, I don't see any need to change.

Spotty that was a bit uncalled for. The op has not made herself look that bright on this thread, granted but thats not made you look stellar!

Spotty that's downright nasty. Nice.

SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame
I asked for information because (a) I've often found mumsnet a great source of information, (b) my questions were so basic, KC/breeding related and non-medical that I didn't want to waste a vet's time. At that stage, I had only just made contact with a breeder. Mumsnet has been my go-to place for easy information for a while and as stated in my OP, I have a high opinion of the knowledge base. However, experiences in the past were limited to human pregnancy queries! If you read the thread, you'll see that my specific questions weren't answered until very late in the thread. (You didn't turn up for ages!) I waded through many emotive/hostile posts with no clarification given other than 'people like you make me sick'. I didn't mind hearing honest advice backed up with reasoning but that wasn't helpful at all. It was about Spotty's level, really. Had your post been the first one that I read, I would have formed a very different opinion. There is an anything goes mentality on this site that gets in the way of information being given. Which is a pity because I genuinely think it's relatively full of very clever people (who took a while to turn up).

The fourth post said she was too old. You chose to ignore that.

Terrierterror It didn't give clarification as to why, nor did it give the information that was requested in the OP, leading me to think I was talking to a person who didn't know the answers to those very basic questions (or who was strange enough to ignore my questions and answer a question I hadn't asked). As I had plenty of medical advice on hand in RL and was in any case trying to respond to a flurry of posts, it took me some time to respond to the age comment. But I didn't respond. I didn't ignore it.

did respond!

1)Having homes lined up for the puppies is not ridiculous. Breeders do it.
2)Don't do this. We don't' need more dogs. Don't be selfish. Leave her alone, if you want puppies, rescue some from abandoned litters or volunteer at an animal shelter.

Thickas do you know how odd you're beginning to sound?

But why would people answer your questions when the first thing that jumped out of your first post was that you shouldn't need that information because your bitch is far too old to be having a first litter?

If you already had access to medical information then you would know that 6 is too old and you wouldn't be asking about KC rules.

So it would be wasting your time to actually answer your questions when there was the huge issue of the age of your dog.

The only bit of information that was actually relevant was that your dog is too old. Are you going to spey her now?

What an odd comment about deliberately choosing a dog that isn't well bred. How incredibly simplistic your world view must be. I wanted a springer spaniel just as a pet, but I still thoroughly researched what bloodlines to go for as a well bred dog should be true to type. I presume there are traits to your chosen breed that you find desirable, surely a well bred dog is more likely to conform to the breed standard and have those traits.

If you are going to actively seek out an ill bred dog why not rescue a cross breed go to a breed specific rescue.

I've read the entire thread and managed to miss the bit where you responded to your dog being too old.

I've no doubt that you love your dog very much, but sadly that does not necessarily mean you'd be a good breeder.

I think there was a lot of sound advice offered about choosing the right dog to breed from and when to have tests done.

I'm glad you've decided against breeding from her and hope that her health isn't a problem otherwise.

BinarySolo My world view may be simplistic but I doubt it's as patronizing as yours! I didn't say I'd deliberately seek out a dog that wasn't well bred. I said I'd go for one that didn't have a famous pedigree. This is because I don't agree with gene pool being kept so small. By all means, I would look for a dog that represented the breed well because I would certainly want my dog to have those traits. But there's a world of difference between having an 'ill bred' dog and having a champion in the making. Does my view still seem odd to you? Or don't you find highly selective breeding a problem? The DNA test on its own may limit the exponential increase of health problems but on its own, it won't widen the gene pool. I find it odd that there isn't more debate about this.

I responded to medical advice on the thread (such as posts relating to the age of my dog) by saying firmly that we were taking professional medical advice. Yes, sound advice was offered later.

But you didn't really want to breed your 6 year old dog, right? It's some kind of joke/wind-up/risqué way to start a debate on pedigree breeding, right?

Because otherwise, I find it reeeeally weird how you can have these thought-out half intelligent sounding defensive arguments but still be ok with potentially killing your dog for cash.

Defensive? How is it defensive to feel there is something wrong with extreme selective breeding? Everyone knows it - that's why the kennel club rolled out DNA testing.

And if that's half intelligent, what would qualify as completely intelligent?

Yes - but there is selective breeding for a reason - for example to breed out epilepsy (something that should never be tolerated), and then there is a bleeding disorder in our breed...carriers can be bred from BUT should only breed with non carriers.

Hips and elbows in our breed also have to be carefully considered, sometimes we have to accept a less than perfect score because ours is a rare breed.....but this is not something that I would imagine should be tolerated in Goldies as the breed is quite prolific.

Oh and I forgot to mention the most impt hurdle to jump with selective breeding...temperament.....

I don't have a dog. I don't have anything to add to PP WRT the unwanted bred dogs out there. I do have a cat, that got accidentally pregnant just before spaying and I'd just like to say that the unexpected events in giving birth can really affect your loved pet.
Our cat had a kitten that died inside her (not uncommon in animals, cat or dog), and then got stuck in the vagina.
She had to have a caesarean. Which are more common in dogs. The effect on her had been huge. She was spayed at the same time but it was so stressful. We didn't know if she would survive, nor have any interest in raising the remaining kittens (another died). After going through what we did, I would urge anyone to think twice, to spay their animals, particularly if they are beloved pets.

But no one here has advocated or endorsed "extreme selective breeding" or only breeding from "stellar" bloodlines or a "famous" pedigree. Those who are not anti-breeding entirely have recommended getting a puppy with the long-term intention of using her to breed (rather than as an afterthought when she's too old) and then only doing so if she demonstrates her value as a breed improver by being considered close to the ideal of the breed standard (via showing and the opinion of judges steeped in knowledge of the breed) and/or performing successfully in the job for which Golden Retrievers are bred (field trials / shooting) AND is free from hereditary defects.

There is, however, nothing wrong in aiming to have "a champion in the making", and that is not analogous to the other phrases I refer to above which you use negatively. Every responsible breeder should be aiming to improve something about their dog and the breed in general, or they shouldn't be breeding. You don't set out to breed aiming for "average" because the ones that fall short (and some will, because of simple regression to the mean) will end up "poor". You breed aiming for "excellent" and then the ones who fall short have a chance of ending up "very good".

You are twisting the eminently sensible words of experienced dog owners and breeders to fit your own strawman argument and to attempt to make you look reasonable in the face of others' extreme views. But no one has expressed those extreme views so you are just making yourself appear slightly odd and unable to follow a cogent argument. Similarly, nowhere did you address or respond (other than implicitly in the negative) to the many valid comments about your dog's age, and it does not appear to be the factor which has dissuaded you from breeding, when it should have been from the outset.

Why could you not acknowledge the advice given on this thread by experts and professionals that your dog is too old?

Op: i want to breed my six yo bitch
Vets, breeders,rest of mums net: really think shes too old

Not one person in over 150 responses has said that she isn't too old. But not once have you acknowledged and givena reply to why you were going to ignore that piece of advice.

You went out and spent money on health tests and dna tests to try to endure the health of the puppies but didn't seem to bother about the effects of pregnancy on your dog when she is too old.

Why?