My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

The doghouse

I'd like to breed from my golden retriever bitch.

164 replies

thicketofstars · 11/09/2014 22:23

I have a six year golden retriever bitch. She is, and has always been, perfect in every way. We would like to breed from her and have a few questions for the mumsnet gurus...

  1. She was KC registered as a puppy by the breeder. We never completed the transfer of ownership form until tonight, when I completed it online. Although I haven't received a letter of confirmation yet, the process appeared to go through smoothly. HOWEVER, there was a note at the bottom of the page saying 'This service is only available for dogs registered after 7th of July 2008.' My dog was born on 19th of April, 2008 and was already registered by the time we bought her on 12th of June. Does anyone know anything about this or how long we can expect to wait for confirmation?
  2. We have put the wheels in motion for the recommended eye and hip tests. We understand this is mandatory to be an assured breeder. We will be going ahead with these tests anyway but are confused about whether they are obligatory to be able to register the litter?
  3. Does anyone know the wait period between getting the X rays done and receiving the official score?
  4. We are not breeding for the money but because we believe our dog is one in a million. However, we understand that the price for a service (is that how the term is used??) is the cost of one puppy. What does a retriever puppy sell for at the moment?
  5. We're having difficulty tracking down a retriever stud dog close to where we live. We've looked at the KC register and 'champdog'. Are we missing any other key websites?

Thanks so much and sorry for the length of this post!
OP posts:
Report
SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame · 12/09/2014 11:56

Dwells The breed average for hip scores in GRs is now around 18-20 in total ie 9-10 each hip, and breeders should always be striving to reduce it. When I was active in Goldens, about 15 or so years ago, it was 20 but I believe it has come down a point or two since then.

Report
DwellsUndertheSink · 12/09/2014 12:03

Hmm, I wonder why I thought it was so high??? It is possible to have 50+ scores....here are the breed standards

Either way, Im glad we spayed our girl.

Report
DwellsUndertheSink · 12/09/2014 12:09

oh and the Southern Golden Retriever Rescue organisation took in 70 goldies last year..."Of these 45 originated from breeders, 8 from dealers and 17 were from unknown sources as they came without any paperwork". Thats just in one area.

Report
DollyMixture99 · 12/09/2014 12:24

With respect OP, everyone thinks their dog is the bees knees. You've never actually been told by a GR professional that your bitch is a great example of the breed, so realistically it's likely she isn't.

I've worked a lot with dog breeders a lot in the past and the fact you don't want to perform all the tests on your bitch, including DNA rings warning bells. I will echo what others have said about 6 being far too old as well.

With regard to not yet having homes lined up, to put it in perspective there is a waiting list in double figures for pups from my bitch who isn't yet fully grown and I haven't even said I'm going to breed her.

Report
SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame · 12/09/2014 12:42

It's possible to have high scores - the scale goes up to 53 per hip so a possible maximum total of 106 - but as a general rule, a responsible breeder wouldn't breed from anything with scores above current breed average, unless the dog in question had very rare and valuable bloodlines that were in danger of dying out. Balance is considered as important as the total score too, so a dog with 5:5 hips would usually be preferred to a dog with a score of, say, 0:9.

We considered breeding from our last Golden who was from Tarac / Gaineda lines, and I had a possible stud dog lined up from the Stanroph kennel who was just fabulous and such a big softy, but her hip score was higher than I felt comfortable with, even though both her parents scored low (her sire was 4:4 which was excellent at the time) so we had her speyed too, and like you Dwells we didn't really regret it.

But what do I know? Apparently I have "remarkably little knowledge"... ;)

Report
thicketofstars · 12/09/2014 12:47

For such a vocal lot, you have remarkably little knowledge between you. Or perhaps you did know the answers to my questions but simply chose not to oblige.

Because of course, smart people when choosing to breed their dog, ignore all the specialist websites and forums, and choose to seek advice on a Parenting Chat board?

The poster who said this spoke the truth. I have thought deeply about the information that was given in good faith, dismissed the hysteria and will now hide the thread. Rest assured this thread will inform my next conversation with the vet (who is, after all, a professional). I have also identified a breeding mentor who is offering further advice.

I don't have a problem with strong opinions, that's fine. I don't even mind the unsolicited advice and absence of knowledge regarding the specific questions posed on the OP (and which I have moved on from considerably since completing further research). I do, however, think it's a shame that an anonymous forum should be used as an excuse to speak to people in a way that only an ignorant git would choose to do in real life. It was obvious from the outset that I was not an unscrupulous commercial breeder, I was simply a poorly informed private dog owner. Advise away, but leave the vitriolic histrionics for someone guilty of a bigger crime.

Thanks to those who have tried to help. Cheerio!

OP posts:
Report
TheCunnyFunt · 12/09/2014 12:59

What about your dog being too old? She's almost middle aged, I wouldn't want to become a first time mother in my forties to one baby, let alone 6+ at once!

Report
SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame · 12/09/2014 13:00

Vets are professionals for treating illnesses, advising on how to maintain health and - in some cases - the mechanics of reproduction. They are not experts on breed standards, which is what is needed to be a good breeder, unless they happen to be a breeder/worker/judge of a specific breed in their spare time. I would take a vet's advice on the general health and freedom-from-hereditary-disease status of my dog. I would take an experienced breeder's advice - or a judge, or field trial / gamekeeper's advice, depending on the sphere in which my dog moved - about their fitness to breed from an improvement-of-the-breed perspective. Different specialisms, different experience.

(Vets also vary in their abilities to be able to take and interpret hip score x-rays - it's not as objective as you may think.)

Come back and update us after you've posted on Champdogs or the equivalent, OP; I'd be interested to know how the responses differed.

Report
WeAreGroot · 12/09/2014 13:05

OP I just hope your vet is a reproductive specialist (though even if they were I wouldn't be going to them again if they see no issue with breeding a maiden 6 year old....) and your breeding mentor is a better breeder than you seem to aspire to be.

Please do use the specialist forums you've been pointed towards already (Champdogs and PetForums), there's plenty of excellent breeders on both willing to give good advice.

Report
SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame · 12/09/2014 13:05

Actually, you could save yourself some time - do a google search called "bitch too old to breed from" and look at the Champdogs results...the consensus among the experienced, respected members (Brainless is peerless IME) is that six is too old for a maiden litter in a medium-to-large breed. Similar views from other forums (Yahoo etc).

Report
MothershipG · 12/09/2014 13:32

I was simply a poorly informed private dog owner.

Glad to hear you've done some more research OP because unfortunately the things you don't know about breeding could have serious, potentially fatal, implications for your dog.

If some of the responses on this thread have been strident (to say the least!) it's because so many have us have seen the results of 'poorly informed', careless and uncaring breeding.

But can I repeat that for me one of the most essential parts of being an ethical breeder is accepting responsibility for every puppy you breed for the whole of it's life. That you do your utmost to ensure that no dog you have caused to be brought into this world ends up in a shelter, or worse, because it is without a home. That's a big responsibility, is it one you are prepared to accept?

Report
QuietTiger · 12/09/2014 13:57

Given that the OP has decided to hide the thread, I'm not sure that she'll see this, let alone respond because she has been so defensive, but here is my £0.02p as someone who is "planning" to breed my collie bitch. Might make her think a bit on how to maybe do it - or sadly, not.

My "amazing" collie bitch is currently 10 months old, from phenomenal working lines (and when I say that, I'm talking direct world champion and International champion sheep dog lines). She is going to be a working dog, possibly to trial as well. She has a phenomenally good temperament, is well adjusted, well socialised and doubles as a family pet. I have not bred my own litter of pups, but my DH has bred a number of litters of collie pups and we are also "animal experienced". (For context compared to the OP). DH and I specifically want a couple of pups from her lines crossed with the lines of the dog we have chosen as a stud, to work & trial. Plus, we have breeding back up and support from friends who are both experienced breeders and vets.

Before we even think about breeding my bitch at an optimum age of about 2 1/2 years old, she will be hip scored. IF her hip scores come back as less than ideal, she'll be spayed and that's the end of it. (Bearing in mind her lineage, OP, I can "justify" breeding her all day regardless of hip scores if I was that way inclined).

If, and only IF she has good hip scores, and passes her CEA DNA and PRA eye tests with a clear result, from there, she will need to show GOOD working ability - as in able to do her job correctly, properly and last all day in the field.

If we get that far, then we will consider breeding her. We have already identified a stud dog. He belongs to a sheep dog trainer friend of mine who has seen our collie bitch and works with her already. He will compliment her and also improve her faults. Bearing in mind, OP, this is ONLY if my bitch passes all the above. I already have a list of 4 potential good homes lined up. These are people who know both the bitch and dog and want their lineage for working dogs. Bearing in mind, OP, I still may not breed my bitch because she's still only 10 months old and has a number of health checks and working ability trials to pass before she is even old enough to breed at around 2 1/2 - 3 years old.

Taking into account vet monitoring through the pregnancy and pregnancy scans, when the pups are born (bearing in mind that I already have homes lined up), the pups have to be reared, micro-chipped, wormed, vaccinated, and registered with the ISDS. The sale cost of the pups will not even meet those costs, let alone make any profit. That's all providing the pups have arrived without complications and without any kind of intervention. If my dog needs a C-Section, then vets bills and costs will mount dramatically. Can you afford for that to happen? The risk is much higher for an old "maiden" bitch.

My pups will have back up for life back to me, if they can't be kept for whatever reason, and we are in the position to hold on to all the pups if the right working homes are not there for them. Our collie girl will then be spayed after one litter, at about 3 1/2. Are you able to provide for all your pups for their entire lives if the right home doesn't come along?

THAT is how you do it, OP. NOT the way that you describe, deciding to breed your maiden bitch at 6 years old because she is "one in a million" and then asking what you can expect to pay as a stud dog fee and how much the pups "go for". "Tracking a dog down close to wear you live" does not suggest that you have given much thought into researching your dogs attributes compared to how the sire will improve her faults.

To be frank, you actually sound quite defensive and actually very ignorant about "ethical" breeding. You certainly became extremely defensive when people went against your opinion and pointed out that your dog is too old to breed - one of which is a vet.

In answer to your original OP.

  1. Speak to the Kennel Club in person. They will be able to advise you most fully.

  2. You shouldn't give a shit about whether the tests are obligatory or not for registration, you should be making your breeding choices on the outcome of the tests.

  3. Ask your vet. Times differ as the tests get sent up to the kennel club for scoring and if they don't go to the kennel club, they are likely to go to a specialist for analysis.

  4. Do your research. It should be simple to find out how much a pup costs, but actually, it's better to ask the stud dog owner, because they may take pick of the litter instead of a cash fee. Certainly the people I deal with (sheep dog people) like that as an option.

  5. You should be picking a dog that compliments your bitch, not looking at distance proximity to where you live.

    HTH.
Report
momnipotent · 12/09/2014 14:51

QuietTiger, while I cannot really support anyone breeding their dog (I work in rescue...), I can't condemn your approach. You are being responsible not only for your own dog but also for any resulting puppies, and if you will take lifelong responsibility for those dogs then I can't really argue with you.

I would still prefer that there was no dog breeding going on at all, there are far too many unwanted dogs already, but I do recognize that I am biased and possibly a bit unreasonable in that opinion.

Report
LEMmingaround · 12/09/2014 15:04

Do you go off on a stop and hide every thread where opinion is against you.

You have been advised from a welfare point of view not to consider this. By vets, breeders and professionals.

If you want to become a backyard breeder then fine but don't do this to your bitch. She doesn't deserve it. Do your research. Talk to other breeders then purchase a puppy (that will cost you £££ s) that is from a good line and a good example of the breed. Research stud dogs carefully and dont just take the first one you can. Then thinkabout breeding.

Not from a six year old bitch, please.

Report
WeAreGroot · 12/09/2014 15:12

Excellent post from QuietTiger

Report
QuietTiger · 12/09/2014 16:23

Momnipotent - completely understand your POV. Grin I also do an awful lot of work in (collie) rescue and cat rescue and I suspect we can share a number of stories that have many similar themes. No, I don't consider you unreasonable in the slightest - like you, my "default" setting is "spay and neuter" everything.

It's also why we are being so careful about breeding our collie bitch and if we do have puppies, being so careful who they go to.

Report
BingoBonkers · 12/09/2014 16:32

I've not read the entire thread but you may want to check your contract with your dog's breeder as it may state that she is for a pet home only and not to be bred from.

With dog rescues full to the brim and pounds all over the country euthanising hundreds of dogs every day (today an obscene amount of dogs will have reached their 7days in pounds and being unclaimed will be PTS) I really can't imagine why you want to breed?

Report
sweetkitty · 12/09/2014 16:47

I have a bitch from show lines who has a fantastic temperament, everyone is saying we should breed from her but I'm not going to for a number of reasons, I've seen what her breeder went through, losing puppies, having to re home a pup, it takes over your entire life for 8 weeks, having her hip scored, the worry about finding good homes for the pups.

We cannot formally breed from her anyway as her breeder has restrictions on her which is as it should be.

She's our pet I'll leave breeding to those who are breeding for the show ring to continue their lines and know exactly what they are doing.

Report
JadeJ123 · 12/09/2014 17:27

My first mastiffs breeder had 18 puppies in a litter and within a week there was only 12 left and the bitch developed health problems and cost ££££ in vet bills and she never bred again as was too heartbroken about loosing 6 puppies wondering where she went wrong. There's always golden retrievers needing homes because people breed from them then get rid of them. My rescue dog was waiting 2 years for her forever home and she has more love to give than a puppy.

Report
Midori1999 · 12/09/2014 18:08

I've just seen this thread. Hopefully the OP is still reading...

I showed, worked to an extent and bred Golden Retrievers for a number of years. I totally support ethical breeding and I don't believe that ethical and responsible breeders contribute largely to the rescue situation in this country, although it would be naive to think they never could.

There is absolutely no doubt in my in mind that 6 years old is too old for a bitch to have her first litter. In fact, I wouldn't really want to breed a second or third litter from a bitch of that age and I would never have more than three litters as an absolute maximum from any Golden anyway. The KC rules regarding this are far to relaxed.

As a poster has said above, hip scores are likely to be poor in a six year old due to wear and tear. A general anesthetic as required for the hip and elbow scoring is going to be much more risky in a 6 year old bitch than a 12 month old bitch too, so the risks are already higher at the health testing stage.

I think if your vet is advising you to breed, you should get a second opinion. I think if a breeder is willing to allow you tongues their stud dog on a 6 year old maiden Golden bitch then you need to accept they are not doing this for the good of your bitch.

I am sure you have the best intentions, but I honestly think, as someone who is not anti breeding, who knows the breed very well and who knows how taxing having a litter is for a bitch, even if all goes well, then it would be a very, very bad idea to breed from her.

Report
Hoppinggreen · 12/09/2014 20:24

We had a beautiful Retriever bitch, in fact we had 2 and BOTH were spayed ASAP. They were lovely examples of the breed, beautiful temperament etc but we didn't think they were so amazing we owed it to the world to create more of them!!
If you deliberately breed from your dog for Christs sake at least be honest about WHY - your bitch does not want puppies, she is a retriever and so carries things around. Our used to carry slippers around, doesn't mean she wanted open a shoe shop!!!!
Just don't do it

Report
tabulahrasa · 12/09/2014 20:34

To be fair...my dog would love a shoe shop...

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

OldBagWantsNewBag · 12/09/2014 21:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hoobypickypicky · 12/09/2014 21:12

The OP sent me a PM last night, titled "You're Wrong!".

I told her in my reply and I'm telling her again now: How cowardly. If you have something to say, say it on the thread.

Report
rastamam · 12/09/2014 21:21

Please dont consider breeding from her, 6 is too old. As a vet nurse I can say that from a professional opinion. 6 is old for a large breed dog as yours is and apart from anything else please remember that a hip score is a long process under a GA which puts your dog at risk at that age.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.