I'd like to breed from my golden retriever bitch.

[thicketofstars]

I have a six year golden retriever bitch. She is, and has always been, perfect in every way. We would like to breed from her and have a few questions for the mumsnet gurus...

1. She was KC registered as a puppy by the breeder. We never completed the transfer of ownership form until tonight, when I completed it online. Although I haven't received a letter of confirmation yet, the process appeared to go through smoothly. HOWEVER, there was a note at the bottom of the page saying 'This service is only available for dogs registered after 7th of July 2008.' My dog was born on 19th of April, 2008 and was already registered by the time we bought her on 12th of June. Does anyone know anything about this or how long we can expect to wait for confirmation?
2. We have put the wheels in motion for the recommended eye and hip tests. We understand this is mandatory to be an assured breeder. We will be going ahead with these tests anyway but are confused about whether they are obligatory to be able to register the litter?
3. Does anyone know the wait period between getting the X rays done and receiving the official score?
4. We are not breeding for the money but because we believe our dog is one in a million. However, we understand that the price for a service (is that how the term is used??) is the cost of one puppy. What does a retriever puppy sell for at the moment?
5. We're having difficulty tracking down a retriever stud dog close to where we live. We've looked at the KC register and 'champdog'. Are we missing any other key websites?

Thanks so much and sorry for the length of this post!

[EveDallasRetd]

we're in no doubt that she'd like to have this experience

What a load of bollocks. Stop anthromophising your dog. She's a dog, not a human. She doesn't get broody. It's a chemical act.

If you really loved your dog you wouldn't put her life in danger just to make a quick buck pimping her out. Just stop. Think. She is 6 years old, the odds are stacked way against her for having a successful pregnancy and litter. You could KILL her. How would you feel about that? If your dog DIED because you are NOT listening to people who KNOW that at her age it is a BAD thing. How would you feel?

There are Rescues up and down the UK full of dogs. There are Retrievers in those Rescues. There are breed specific rescues begging for homes for Retrievers. How about rather than bringing yet another litter into the world you do a GOOD THING and offer a home to one of those dogs instead?

[WeAreGroot]

every breeder has to begin somewhere

Of course they do but breeding from a too old pet bitch just because she's lovely is not the best way to go about it.

I would expect someone who had an interest in breeding to be heavily involved with the breed, whether that's showing, competing or working them. I'd expect them to look for a puppy (under guidance from an experienced person within the breed) with the potential to be breeding quality. I'd expect them to work/compete/campaign that puppy, get all necessary health tests done if it shows promise. If the results are good they'd need to choose a suitable stud with good health test results, which compliments the bitch both in temperament and conformation, who is likely to produce what the breeder is aiming for (working dogs/show dogs/etc.), again under guidance from someone more experienced.

These days there is absolutely no excuse for going about breeding in anything less than the ideal way, the information is all out there.

[thicketofstars]

Eve Privately bred puppy does not equal backyard breeder. You should also be aware that bitches aren't abandoned because they're too old to breed from (as if such a disreputable person would care!) but because it's impossible to breed more than four litters from the same bitch. As a side issue, you are unnecessarily hostile.

Wearegroot
I think I have just identified a mentor, yes.
My dog's temperament is exceptional. The vet has said she's a perfect example of the breed and we wouldn't dream of going against her advice regarding breeding from her.
Are you aware of the 'MateSelect' service offered by the Kennel Club? I would not be attempting to identify a stud dog based solely on my limited experience.
No, there weren't endorsements.

To all those throwing up their hands in horror at the idea of deliberately breeding from a pedigree dog - I understand where you're coming from. However, I also see a place for pedigree dogs, especially the retriever, and consider my dog an asset to the breed.

[Tauriel1]

Not anti puppy here, just anti anyone who fancies it breeding from their dog.

I know you've had harsh responses op, but it's because a lot of people feel so strongly about breeding. We all have ideas that seem good, but then other people point things out and it makes you see that maybe it's not a good idea.

[ohjesus]

Well said nearly everyone.
People like you make me sick. Let your dog just be a pet rather then a money maker

[ohjesus]

Im sure we all consider out dogs credits to their breed.....

[EveDallasRetd]

Golden Retriever Rescues www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/findarescue/Default.aspx?breed=2047

Wales www.goldenretrieverrescuecymru.co.uk

[WeAreGroot]

My dog's temperament is exceptional.

So is that of a great many dogs, that alone is not enough to warrant breeding from them.

The vet has said she's a perfect example of the breed

Is your vet an expert in GRs? Do they show or work them themselves? Are they a judge of any kind?

Are you aware of the 'MateSelect' service offered by the Kennel Club?

Yes, and it's merely a tool to estimate inbreeding coefficients and look up health test results. It tells you nothing about temperament and conformation.

[Pooka]

What about the health of your dog though? You're happily suggesting that she would love to have puppies because of behaviour in the garden, extolling her perfection and basically it comes across as if you think the world of her, and yet you're willing to expose her to risky pregnancy or of disease if she remains unspayed?

Let her carry in carrying baby hedgehogs and being a great pet without putting her through a mating/pregnancy.

[thicketofstars]

Eve I should have said it's impossible to provide KC registration for over four litters from one bitch.

Wearegroot This is interesting. I don't think it's an ethical requirement to campaign your puppy, simply because you'd like to breed from her. That's a commercial requirement. 'Ideal' breeding is about ethics, not acting like a commercial breeder as possible. I agree with you that it would be ideal to select a puppy to breed from with breeding in mind. That's why we have taken professional advice about this in the past; if our dog wasn't a good example of the breed, that would matter to us. Personally, I think you're taking the 'health checks' list rather too far with your suggestion that the DNA test should be a mandatory ethical requirement. But agree with eyes and hips, obviously.

[furcoatbigknickers]

Its for the money

[SqueakyChicken]

I have only met two Golden Retrievers whose temperaments weren't excellent (and I've met a huge amount of Goldens). It's not something special, they're just a lovely breed.

I'm shocked that any mentor in the breed is advising breeding a 6 year old dog for the first time. I know of a dog that is an international show champion (ie. an exceptional example of her breed), but for various reasons she was 5 before she could have her first litter, and her breeder decided it was far too late. Too old. Please think of your dog.

[EveDallasRetd]

Eve Privately bred puppy does not equal backyard breeder

Yes it does. You are not a professional. You are wanting to breed your TOO OLD bitch out of your backyard. You do not care for the welfare of your current bitch. You are the very definition of a backyard breeder.

You should also be aware that bitches aren't abandoned because they're too old to breed from (as if such a disreputable person would care!) but because it's impossible to breed more than four litters from the same bitch

I've worked with a Rescue. I've seen the dumped dogs. I've met the scumbag backyard breeders that have given up their bitches for being 'shagged out'. I've seen the tears in my bosses eyes when they laugh at her and she knows they'll be back with another bitch later.

As a side issue, you are unnecessarily hostile

Get used to it. Backyard breeders don't deserve kindness.

[Bubble2bubble]

sighs

Of course everyone wants retriever puppies.
There are two 11 month old golden retriever puppies in my local pound tonight. They've been there a week and guess what, no one wants them.

I meet people every day of the week who want to breed from their lovely dog. Unless more of us keep on saying "please don't " the stream of unwanted dogs will never end.

[WeAreGroot]

I don't think it's an ethical requirement to campaign your puppy, simply because you'd like to breed from her. That's a commercial requirement.

Really? You don't think it's ethical to either prove a dog is capable of doing what the breed is meant to or to get an objective evaluation of your dog prior to breeding?

I think you'll find that commercial puppy farmers and BYBs do neither. Campaigning a dog is not cheap, it makes no commercial sense for people in it for the money to bother.

Personally, I think you're taking the 'health checks' list rather too far with your suggestion that the DNA test should be a mandatory ethical requirement.

So despite the DNA tests recommended by the KC you don't think it's necessary to bother? You don't feel the need to get a complete picture of your bitches genetic health before breeding from her? You also don't mention elbow scoring which is very highly recommended by the KC.

[thicketofstars]

For such a vocal lot, you have remarkably little knowledge between you. Or perhaps you did know the answers to my questions but simply chose not to oblige.

There's an interesting contradiction in hating all dog breeders whilst simultaneously suggesting that the only way to breed dogs is to act exactly like a dog breeder.

In my situation, we needed to be as confident as we could about our dog's temperament from the outset. We have successfully rehabilitated very difficult dogs in the past but our circumstances are different now. We responsibly chose to give a home to the puppy we had the best chances of succeeding with.

I have no problem with strong opinions but it's disappointing to find them being conveyed in such insulting and hostile terms. It's clear that an honest request for information - or even clear, civil opinions - was too much to hope for. Don't you all have something better to do? I'll ask MNHQ to withdraw the thread and explain why.

[tabulahrasa]

She's too old.

The older a bitch is (and most people consider 4 1/2 to be the oldest they'd consider breeding a first litter) the more chance there is that her uterus will haemorrhage which will at best mean an emergency section and at least partially rearing the puppies and at worst a dead bitch and orphaned puppies.

If you like your dog, go back to her breeder and get a puppy from the same lines. Talk to them about breeding plans and they can tell you what's involved as really you should be planning it as soon as they're mature.

[Bubble2bubble]

And another one for you:
www.irishretrieverrescue.com

[SqueakyChicken]

Why ask for advice if you were just going to ignore it?

What a pointless thread.

[SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame]

I agree 100% with WeAreGroot.

I'm not anti-breeding, despite volunteering for a rescue organisation and having rescue dogs myself. We need responsible breeders to give people who want a particular breed (and there are often good reasons for that) an alternative to the puppy farms and backyard breeders, and to continue to strive to reverse some of the damage done by breeders of the past who bred for extreme characteristics.

I think some of the responses here have been a little harsh, as the OP has clearly given this more thought than many. However, this is not the right bitch to start with.

OP, if you seriously want to breed for the right reasons, I suggest you go about sourcing a really good quality bitch pup from either show or working (whichever type is your preference - GRs are very distinctly different in the two strains) stock now. Find a responsible, ethical breeder who is happy to act as your mentor. Immerse yourself in bloodlines, go to lots of shows / field trials. Bring your puppy up to be the same good well-socialised canine citizen as your existing dog with the addition of some competition experience. Then IF she acquits herself well as a good example of the breed, take your mentor's advice about a suitable stud dog. And in the meantime, enjoy the love and companionship of your existing dog without putting her health at risk.

[thicketofstars]

And Eve, it would be very difficult for anyone to describe me as a backyard breeder at this present moment. By the way being civil isn't something you give because someone deserves it, it's what you do to be the decent person that you clearly believe you are. You will win no votes by venting.

[WeAreGroot]

There's an interesting contradiction in hating all dog breeders whilst simultaneously suggesting that the only way to breed dogs is to act exactly like a dog breeder.

All dog breeders are not equal.

As unpopular a view as it is on here I believe it is possible to a responsible and ethical breeder, and I think it's vital that we have such breeders.

Breeding from a bitch who is too old for a first litter because she has a nice temperament without doing all appropriate health tests would put you firmly in BYB territory.

If you'd rather ask elsewhere I can highly recommend this forum. There are some incredibly knowledgeable breeder who are always willing to answer questions from those interested in breeding.

[SignYourNameInBrownAndFlame]

And if course, it goes without saying re only breeding if health checks are suitable, but you're already aware of that.

[thicketofstars]

I asked for advice to specific questions, none of which have been answered. I didn't invite general advice at all and I certainly didn't invite abuse.

[hoobypickypicky]

An asset to the breed, in breeding terms, means that your bitch and the stud dog is of the absolute top of the line in terms of breed improvement. That means years of experienced breeding to produce both parents so that they can produce offspring which are an improvement on current offerings.

For many reputable breeders this might mean importing sperm from a thoroughly assessed and tested dog from overseas. It does not mean findng a local dog which will do. It is a million to one chance that you'll both have a thoroughly suitable bitch which is an improvement to the breed than any similar "one in a million" in your opinion and conveniently have a dog which will improve the breed specification in terms of health and temperament locally. Literally, a million to one chance. Anything else makes you just another backyard breeder.

I'll raise the issue of you asking how much a pup is worth on the market.

I'll raise the issue that you don't know about the tests needed and are asking if they're necessary! I'm frankly shocked by that alone.

I'll take issue that it's "ridiculous" that you don't have prospective homes lined up (and a reserve list in case of drop-outs). Any informed breeder will have both. Any informed breeder would know that this is a pre-requisiite of good breeding practice.

I'll back those who are telling you that 6 is too old to breed a bitch and wouldn't be supported by any responsible breeder. I'll back those who raise the subject of potential cancers in an unspayed bitch, especially an older one, of pyometra and of the potential distress, risk to life and expense to the owner of a caeasarean.

I'll refer you to other posters comments about the number of dogs already in this world without homes and those which are killed because of it.

I'll ask you where you intend to advertise and sell any pups.