How do I get dog to do what I want without him growling?

[Buddy2go]

We have the loveliest show cocker 13 month dog. He's pretty well trained and normally really a joy to be with however...
Though he's not aggressive with his own food should he find anything while out he becomes aggressive and will snap when the food is removed. If he is comfortable / decides he wants to be somewhere we don't want him to be he'll growl when we try to move him. I can get round it by encouraging and enticing away but it feels like I'm rewarding the growling. I'd just like him to be more accepting of " it's time to move" .

I know I'm not in the best mood when asked to do something I don't want to do and understand his annoyance but the growling is not acceptable and I'd like to be able to say "no" without fuss .
Any ideas ?

Spero it was meant to be lighthearted comment so sorry if it came across as anything different.

Lil an excellent book and one without doubt I need to revisit after this thread

Thanks mutty - I am sure you can appreciate that after a few years of being told I am an awful person who abuses her dogs, isn't fit to look after dogs, doesn't agree with dogs being walked, thinks dogs should be left alone all day, uses 'violence and intimidation' to control her dogs etc, etc, etc, I may be a little over sensitive.

I hope we can all Move Forward in the future with constructive dialogue as I am sure we all share the same aims.

I would just like to politely point out that the general aura of hysterical combativeness which often swirls around these threads is not very constructive - and I have PMs to prove it from people who have been driven off these kind of threads in tears and say they won't post again.

Don't let your love of and passion for the welfare of dogs drive people away. That's all I ask.

Spero I think your last post shows your good intentions :)

I would just say that the vast majority of trainers, behaviourists and vets in our generation started out relying on methods of dog training based on lots of verbal "commands" and reprimands such as "no" for unwanted behaviour. Over time and with education trainers tend to "crossover" to using reinforcement training because it's more effective and the science supports it. I have never ever met a trainer or behaviourist who went the other way.

I understand that you think this approach leaves a gap for dealing with emergency situations such as cat chasing etc. But in honesty, these are situations where we have a responsibility to manage risks rather than expect dogs not to behave like dogs. If I don't want my dog to chase cats, he stays on a lead around cats until I have trained him to sit quietly and patiently around cats. I don't give him the opportunity to chase a cat at all because I don't want him to have the opportunity to try out such an undesirable behaviour. So do you see that the approach is much more about moulding a dog to be the sort of companion we want, by asking for specific behaviours, rather than letting it choose fun dog behaviours for itself which then become a problem for us to manage?

One of the things I have found from training people to train their dogs (which I had only done in an assistant capacity and in the 'easier' cases of family pets) is that positive reinforcement is safer all around. Training is complicated and communicating with an animal is a skill that takes time to develop. If the owner gets some aspect of positive reinforcement /negative punishment wrong they just end up giving treats/failing to give treats pointlessly. If the owner is encouraged to use negative reinforcement/positive punishment and they get that wrong then they can be in serious trouble. Once a dog has bitten you are in a different situation than anything before when you may have had a dog with an annoying/destructive/restrictive behaviour.

I would just like to make it clear that positive training is not a "fad" or new way of training. It has scientific evidence that this is how animals learn. From goldfish through to whales. Studies over decades and MRI scans have consolidated the argument amongst the most reluctant scientists.

So to argue against it is like saying that we think the world is still flat. However you can of course train your animals however you want to.

Re emergency situation a positive interrupter is so much more powerful than a negative correction. Test it yourself over a few months. I have labs staying with me at the moment. We al know their love of food! They were all eating a chicken carcass for breakfast and I gave a positive interrupter and they left their food to come to me. IF labs will leave food then you can easily stop a dog running into the road or chasing a cat.

My personal frustration on this thread was that questions were asked and clear answers were given but the same questions continued to be asked as if they had been ignored. That is something I will work on and learn to walk away from.

Re love and passion driving people away I am booked until end of 2016 with seminars, talk and demonstrations so will not worry about that just yet. Although what will dry up my work is the more people that start to use positive training and do not need me to help unravel issues that have arisen.

Well of course I have good intentions - I don't think anyone with a dog who posts on these threads has anything other than 'good intentions' - which makes it all the more frustrating when the default position seems to be to attack and use really inflammatory and hurtful words if someone 'steps out of line'.

I am sorry mutty that you felt 'clear answers were given' and were simply ignored.

Perhaps it may help you understand my perspective if I repeat it as simply as I can.

I explained my relationship with my dogs, based on predominantly positive interactions in a managed environment. But when the dogs did something I considered totally unacceptable OR an emergency arose (such as a cat appearing out of nowhere) I am prepared to act decisively, tell them 'no' and mean it.

I was then presented with a slew of links about dominance theory - which I explained several times I did not believe in, even before having read John Bradshaw's excellent book (which I am grateful for a previous thread referring me to).

I asked if someone could please explain why saying 'no' to a dog meant the relationship with a dog was based on 'violence and intimidation' and got another round of links from lillcamper which seemed to be advising me to do exactly what I was doing, only substituted 'no' for 'ah ha!' (hence my trip to iplayer to brush up on my Steve Coogan)

So I don't accept that 'clear answers were given' that I 'ignored', just to be combative or because I enjoy a fight - as some seem to suggest.

Can I suggest a way forward?

On these threads if someone offers advice based on 'dominance theory' try to restrain your impatience - difficult I know - and point out that this is well out of date and has been replaced by other much more effective interventions. Then offer a few links/books.

It is very hard for someone who loves their dogs and genuinely thinks they are doing the best for them to then be attacked in quite harsh language by others who tell them that not only do they not love their dogs, they are ignorant, stupid and their dogs are suffering, etc, etc.

I know this is how people have been made to feel because they message me to say so.

It would be such a shame if all the experience and good intentions of people on these threads got lost because the way in which they present their message is unduly combative.

Lottie would like to reassure you all she is not governed by violence and intimidation and has quite properly come and sat on my keyboard to remind me that it is time for a walk.

Ok I think I now get it and where the confusion lies.

Positive trainers would consider any type of positive punishment unnecessary. Even the need to prevent behaviour by giving a negative command as in no. We would give a positive interrupter that guarantees the dog success and also that they are willing to repeat time after time as it is self rewarding.

However Spero you do not consider saying no or shouting as aversive - here we will have to disagree. (although aversive does not mean I think you beat your dogs which I think you think we are implying) So the links posted by others were showing the effects of aversive training which you do not think you are doing.

So we are not arguing over positive training being effective but what defines aversive training.

Re PM's I have also had them from Positive trainers who have just given up posting due to the brick wall response from aversive trainers.

I would love you to come to my training centre and see animals that are trained using only positive methods. This is a serious invitation. Bring your dogs and see what they can achieve and how we can get them to work using a positive interrupter.

Lottie is gorgeous

Oh squeeee. Beautiful staffie chops. My favourite

Spero. I have just won a competition for a ticket to this event: www.bvba.org.uk/events.html

I will ask Kendal Shepherd what she thinks about using verbal reprimands (if I don't faint with excitement!). If Kendal Shepherd says it, it must be true

mutty I would love to - where are you based? I am in Wiltshire but I would be prepared to travel an hour or two.

Now HERE is an example of a stupid bastard that I wouldn't mind you all ripping into
jezebel.com/the-stupidest-things-said-by-man-who-tried-to-dump-his-1583014191?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_facebook&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

affafantoosh - that does sound good and its in Telford which is 20 mins from where my dad lives! I am a frequent visitor to Shropshire, shall I try to sneak in (or will you all beat me with Kongs).

Lottie is well aware of her loveliness, but she thanks you for noticing

Affaf lucky you. I haven't got anything lined up til Oct. Last thing I attended was run by Nando last year.

Spero I hope you manage to take up the offer. And never ever stray into dog training and behaviour groups on FB. If you think it's crazy in here, you would be absolutely gobsmacked on there!

I think some people are intimidated by dog training anyway and I don't think other owners help with their 'well meaning' advice. I think sometimes group classes undermine people's confidence and they leave before they have finished as they think it's a quick fix, rather than like school for dogs/owners and yet if you stay and work hard through it your confidence grows. Not mine last , was the trying not cry owner of a collie

I haven't pm'd anyone before I get accused of doing so

Your dog is luffley Spero.

My neighbour calls his dog who keeps running off a fxxcking bxxtard. Come back here you fxxcking bxxtard, then wonders why the dog won't come back and is nervous of men

Owllady, that's awful.

When I lived in South Bristol there was a woman and a collie I used to see in our local park. I wonder now if she had mental health issues. I didn't say or do anything about what I saw and I still think about it now and I feel so sad and hopeless for them both.

The collie seemed a perfectly normal bouncy young dog. She would throw a ball and then SHOUT at the dog 'bring it back! I am the boss! you will respect me!' and then put his lead on and get right in his face shouting 'I am in charge'.

I couldn't understand what the hell the dog had done wrong and I bet he couldn't either. It was horrible to watch.

But what do you do in that situation? She was quite scarey and I didn't want to approach her. I tried to model good behaviour by chucking ball for Lottie and crying out 'good girl!' in nice tones.

Really sad.

The drop off rate in my last pupping training class was huge - we started out with about 8 dogs, ended up just two (and my chihuahua still only managed to come second in the race!)

I think some of the people dropped out because they didn't like the sound of the hard work they were told they would have to do.

'puppy' dammit.

To be honest I wonder if you guys are going to the wrong classes. In years of being an assistant trainer I've never seen people walk out of classes or not finish the course. Some people take the introductory set of classes and feel that is enough for their needs, but other than the very odd exception of someone falling in during the course I have no had clients stop coming. Most people continue to the intermediate class and some to the advanced class.

I have had a few owners struggle with co-ordinating the "behaviour - click - reward" sequence, or with timing their clicks but with patience everyone gets there eventually.

It happened with my first puppy training with the staffy, but not to the same degree. About two people dropped out of that one. But the trainer was VERY firmly wedded to dominance theory and brought his Rottweiler in so we could all see how good she was.

we were told we mustn't let our dogs walk into the house before us, never let them on beds or sofas and never let them eat before us. All, I think, absolute bobbins.

But you can't blame some people for getting confused when they go to a puppy training recommended by their vets (as both mine were) and this is the message they get.

the first puppy training was in late 2011 so things may have moved on. My second - in 2013 didn't focus on 'dominance'. More treats and positive affirmations etc.

One of these days the industry will be regulated and ALL vets will get clued up on behaviour and stop recommending self proclaimed 'pack leaders'. Well I can dream.

Argh this is why I bang on and on about the importance of vets having behaviour knowledge. Vets have a golden opportunity to set new owners up on the right road and so many are squandering it by sending clients to dreadful trainers. Plus, we are in a position of trust, and our clients often assume some implied endorsement from our recommendations.

It makes me really really cross and it's inexcusable.