How do I get dog to do what I want without him growling?

[Buddy2go]

We have the loveliest show cocker 13 month dog. He's pretty well trained and normally really a joy to be with however...
Though he's not aggressive with his own food should he find anything while out he becomes aggressive and will snap when the food is removed. If he is comfortable / decides he wants to be somewhere we don't want him to be he'll growl when we try to move him. I can get round it by encouraging and enticing away but it feels like I'm rewarding the growling. I'd just like him to be more accepting of " it's time to move" .

I know I'm not in the best mood when asked to do something I don't want to do and understand his annoyance but the growling is not acceptable and I'd like to be able to say "no" without fuss .
Any ideas ?

We will have to agree to disagree. I do not think I 'harm' my dogs by having boundaries which I enforce. If you don't want to raise dogs that way, that is super. Whatever works for you and your dogs and the people with whom you interact.

Dogs don't understand what that word means Spero.
Also, negative reinforcement is very effective at changing behaviour. However it also increases stress and increases bite risk.

Mine do.

Oh FFS, neither instance required being physically corrected. Educate yourself.

affa, you say that you cannot compare a dog growling to a teenager swearing at you, but you do compare scruffing to your husband hitting you. I think that you cannot compare either to a dog's behaviour. You cannot compare a dog to an adult human, or an almost-adult who is developing their own agency and will have to make all of their own choices in life soon. I think having a dog is much closer to having a small child. If your toddler was screaming and hitting the ground and everyone else in Tesco, you wouldn't hang around, you'd get a hold of them and scoop them up and out of there. If your five year old told you to fuck off when he was sitting on the sofa, the telly would be off and any resistance to being taken to bed not tolerated - they'd be towed up the stairs by the arm forthwith. Granted, once you'd closed the door on their room you'd sit down and have a long conversation with your husband about how you would deal with the situation in future to avoid conflict arising - but when it happens, you deal with it swiftly, no messing.

I picked up the dog and put him outside for a few minutes. Saying 'no!'

It worked.

So you getting cross with me on the internet is not exactly the most persuasive thing I have ever come across.

I am not cross, I just know there are better ways.

So saying 'FFS educate yourself' is you on a good night?

You have one opinion. I have another. Mine is based on both practical and theoretical knowledge.

But if you think I am so dangerously wrong, why not point me in the direction of whatever source would be the best 'education' for me?

i have been on countless of these types of threads over the years. The aggression and hostility is amazing. I have been accused of saying dogs should never be walked, all sorts of crap.

I am tired of it.

And I am sick of people mistreating their dogs in the name of training. This is a good start lifeasahuman.com/2011/pets/blunt-force-trauma-canine-reality/

Right.

Repot me to the RSPCA. If they decide to prosecute, I will agree you are right. I will PM you my home address if that is the info you need.

The link you posted is about dominance theory.

I agree that dominance theory has been debunked.

I do not believe my dogs are trying to exert dominance. But they need to learn what is acceptable behaviour in my household. I have boundaries which I enforce. I offer praise and reward for good behaviour.

Why is this abusive? Can you explain?

Your links says this

I just need to provide a clear and consistent structure for my dog to understand our life together. This would be what some dog trainers call “setting the rules” or “defining the boundaries”. But it has nothing to do with “getting respect” and everything to do with educating my dog about how to operate successfully in my home!

I agree. How is this abusive?

Until dogs are recognised as more than 'things' by law, I am at a disadvantage. I'd hate to be your dogs. Mine trust me totally and have never been punished.

Dogs have absolutely naff all desire to please their owners, that is a Disney borne myth that we do our dogs a massive disservice by continuing to pedal. They are entirely self serving and as soon add you realise this and work with it you discover it is possible to train you dog so very simply.

One of my dogs has both bronze and silver KCGC awards, he is not a particularly trainable breed (whippet) and has never been 'told' to do anything ever, just asked, and shown that it is worth his while.

The link I posted was from someone who doesn't believe in dominance theory. He is a personal friend..

Your link also says this

Without the structure that many trainers allude to (but don’t always clearly articulate), it can be difficult for my dog to figure out what the heck works in this crazy place. I just need to communicate effectively. No poking, no kicking, no confusion, no inconsistency. Yes is yes and no is no

I agree and this is what I do. But I am constantly told 'dogs don't understand the word 'no''.

Well my dogs do. They have a vocabulary of at least 10 words I think, including 'no', 'wait', 'sit', 'down', 'up', 'paw'.

They certainly understand 'good boy!' said in bright enthusiastic tone as tail starts wagging immediately.

Big PDF but this very important paper from Bristol is essential reading - all vets and trainers should really have made themselves familiar with this review: www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Behavior/Bradshaw_2009.pdf

A few others for a flavour of what's out there:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159108003717

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787807002766

www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bloomsbury/azoos/2005/00000018/00000003/art00003

And this website, which was written by Dr Rachel Casey, also of Bristol, is endorsed by the RSPCA, Dogs Trust, Wood Green, the APBC, the APDT and several veterinary behaviour and ethology organisations:
www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

noddingoff I really feel your frustration - I spent my early years in practice driven demented by the public's inability to handle their pets. But you know what, most of the time the snarling scrabbling shitting Westie which is entwined in mortal combat with you over having its nails clipped is perfectly fine at home, and actually the owners did not identify any need to train it to cope with this sort of handling. Yes, the gold star clients who socialise and habituate their puppies from day one are few and far between, but actually if a dog is a rescue then there is every possibility that expecting well-meaning but less knowledgeable clients to be able to undertake the sort of intensive DS/CC programme required to overcome a complete lack of adequate socialisation is just unrealistic. Especially when their dog poses them no problems at home.

The best our profession can do in these cases is identify the motivation (usually fear), adapt our techniques, and also communicate well with the owners who often feel a mixture of distress, anxiety, and guilt that their dog is so frightened, we are at risk and they are unable to control the situation.

you would 'hate' to be my dogs.

Luckily for me I can care less about this opinion because I love my time with my dogs and they enrich my life.

But sometimes they have merited and received 'punishment'.

I have read In Defence of Dogs. I have read with interest much of the debunking of Cesar Milan.

I don't ascribe to the dominance theory - the evidence about disparate wolf packs in zoos was very compelling.

But I still don't understand why it is 'abuse' to say 'no' to a dog and why a dog growling at his owner for any other reason than he is in pain should EVER be tolerated.

My dogs vocabulary is over 50 words and doesn't include 'no'.

That's great. It works for you.

But please do explain why it is 'abusive' to say 'no' to a dog.

And no need for more links debunking dominance theory - I do not ascribe to that theory and never have - even though my first puppy trainer most certainly did and that was only 2 years ago...

Spero, may I recommend Don't Shoot the Dog by Jean Donaldson? It is fascinating and looks in more detail at learning theory than at dominance stuff.

www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/ is also a brilliant wee site to read.

:)

I think you have already posted the second link? It appears to be dedicated to debunking the dominance theory, and I completely agree.

So again, back to my central point. Why is it abusive to say no to a dog? Why do you say dogs don't understand the word no? Lilcamper's dog apparently understands 50 words! mine must be very thick then as I don't think we are anywhere near 50.

And I accept they respond to tones of voices over the individual words to a large extent but I have clear evidence that they both understand and respond to 'no'.

Affaf, great links! Going off to hug my force free trained boy now.

Spero, if you take the time to read it, you will find it actually goes into a lot of detail about why aversive training methods are not recommended.