How do I get dog to do what I want without him growling?

[Buddy2go]

We have the loveliest show cocker 13 month dog. He's pretty well trained and normally really a joy to be with however...
Though he's not aggressive with his own food should he find anything while out he becomes aggressive and will snap when the food is removed. If he is comfortable / decides he wants to be somewhere we don't want him to be he'll growl when we try to move him. I can get round it by encouraging and enticing away but it feels like I'm rewarding the growling. I'd just like him to be more accepting of " it's time to move" .

I know I'm not in the best mood when asked to do something I don't want to do and understand his annoyance but the growling is not acceptable and I'd like to be able to say "no" without fuss .
Any ideas ?

I'm obviously not obsessed enough :o

And on that bombshell........

AH HAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Smell my cheese.

Oh cook a cat

Piss cock Partridge!

Again, I think we have been talking at cross purposes.

I am not arguing 'good' 'better' 'best'. I am not saying anyone who does anything different to me is an idiot, shouldn't have a dog etc, etc, etc. (all of which has been said to me on these threads and worse).

I am saying that I don't think the way I treat my dogs is abusive or harmful and no one has shown me anything to change my mind. I don't think my relationship with them is based on violence or intimidation. I don't think anyone should 'hate' to be my dogs.

No one is going to win me over by saying that. Because its hurtful and untrue.

We have coincidentally all had a very nice evening under the duvet watching a programme about Steve Coogan from 2009. I had forgotten how good Pauline Calf was.

Spero, your responses have been dignified, IMO

Some comments on here unnecessarily hurtful, and some deliberate misunderstanding

Spero one last attempt.

Scenario One . Mum and toddler. Toddler approaches an open fire and runs close to it. Mums shouts NO and grabs the toddler. The toddler bursts into tears and is shocked by the noise and reaction from Mum. Mum has a toddler tantrum to deal with.

Scenario Two: Mum and toddler. Toddler and Mum see open Fire and Mum instantly side tracks the toddler by showing them something nice on the other side of the room. Mum and toddler are happily laughing and having fun with the distraction.

In a one off instance scenario one is just stressful but over time you will begin to get a strained stressful relationship between the Mum and toddler at the very least they will both be exhausted. Scenario two will continue in a happy and relaxed manner.

Same with dogs do you want you dog to be in a stressful environment or a happy and relaxed one.

A one off situation like this is not harmful or intimidating but the fall out of this way of training can become so very quickly.

Someone who is willing to learn needs to keep an open mind and not just hang onto one point in a thread at the detriment of other educational points that are being made.

I have learnt a lot on this thread mainly never ever to get involved with a thread that Spero is on - I would rather find a brick wall to bang my head on

Spero, have you watched alphA papa? It's a work of genius

Just sack pat

One last attempt.

Toddler runs towards fire/road/dog with rabies.

Mum screams 'no!' rushes in, swoops up toddler, toddler cries but is not burned/squashed/had face bitten off.

Or mum scrabbles in bag for something shiny to wave at toddler whilst saying in bright enthusiastic tones 'o do stay away from the fire/busy road/ nasty doggie Tarquin'.

I know which scenario I would go for.

Alpha papa is a work of consummate genius and i am afraid I laughed a little too hard and too long when the bloke vaults over the pier at the end. It holds a special place in my heart as I had my 40th birthday party at Cromer Pier.

In an emergency situation you react. I would probably grab my dog by his harness/toddler by the hood of their jacket if they were about run into a road (my dogs and kids were NEVER near a road unrestrained for that to actually happen)

In a teaching/training situation which would be more effective?

I am teaching you how to do something, I speak a foreign language, everytime you make an attempt at what you think I want, I growl 'NO', and poke you in the arm.

You try again and get the same reaction. This goes on and on until you feel the bruise starting to develop and it hurts.

In the end you give up trying to do anything because you worry that you will get it wrong and will get poked again. It is far safer to not try anything and to just sit still and do nothing, you haven't learned anything but at least I am not poking you anymore.

Or

Same situation. But I sit and wait, you try various things and get no reaction. I make encouraging noises and smile because I want you to succeed and achieve what I am trying to teach you.

You keep trying, I am still smiling and encouraging you, you reach up and touch you earlobe, I say a cheery 'Yesss!' And pop a cube of chocolate in your mouth.

You try and remember what you did that earned you the chocolate. Again you try a few things, you tap your knee, you wiggle your foot, then you remember, you reach up and touch your earlobe, I say, 'yesss' and give you more chocolate.

This time you know what you did, you go straight for your earlobe, I say, Yessss, you get the rest of the bar of chocolate. We end the training session and the next time you come in you remember what you did to get the chocolate and offer the behaviour straight away.

In which way did you learn better?

I said that I have shouted no! And grabbed my dog when she was chasing the cat with evil intent. I considered that to be an emergency situation comparable to toddler, busy road.

Your original response to that was FFS educate yourself.

You seem to be wilfully misinterpreting what I do as a deliberate plan to practice aversive training on a day to day basis, which I guess explains the anger expressed towards me.

Maybe read what I actually said.

You are putting in a lot of effort to 'educate' me, which is admirable, but I wouldn't want you to be wasting your time.

I would put the incident down to human error tbh. Management should have been in place. Stairgates for the cat to escape through or other places the dog couldn't reach.

Then you could have worked on changing the dog's mindset from 'small furry, must chase' to 'small furry, where's mum for my reward.'

Set them up to succeed and there is no need for punishment.

Spero you are now getting hysterical. Lilcamper has nowhere said FFS educate yourself. She has posted links from reputable, sources that explain answers to the questions you have asked.

In your usual way you have chosen to ignore these and carry on in a bombastic manner.

You are putting words into other peoples mouths/threads no where has anyone said that you are deliberately panning to practice aversive training on a day to day basis except yourself.

If I where you I would get over this and have a You are not changing any of our minds - I have not studied with many academics and world re-known behaviourists to have my mind changed by a argumentative member of MN who has owned a dog for three years

panning = planning

I did say, 'oh FFS neither instance required physical correction' out of sheer frustration and after a couple of glasses of wine on a bank holiday evening

But other than that have tried to stay polite and informative.

And I have to work tonight, with dogs and their owners so no for me.

Mutty, would you say you yourself are very openminded and willing to learn new ways?

Or do you just want others yo be openminded enough to blindly follow your way?

Our way is scientifically proven to get the best and longest lasting wanted behaviours from a dog and also to get rid of unwanted behaviours.

Why would we want to be open to anything else?

Tried other ways, I get better results and relationships with my dogs this way and would never go back.

The more I learn the more I love force free training.

ilcamper Sun 25-May-14 22:04:15
Oh FFS, neither instance required being physically corrected. Educate yourself.

DO feel free to apologise to me any time you like for calling me 'hysterical'.

O wait! this is a thread about dogs. As you were.

Spero Lindsay's three volume "Handbook of applied dog behavior and training" has a superb review of a century of literature on this topic with thousands of refences to follow up on (plus a correct explanation of what R+ R- P+ and P- are which I suspect from how you misuse the terms might be of interest to you).

Bravepotato I am incredible open minded and follow new ways, I am constantly challenging my training methods in a professional capacity and always learning. I could give stealth boasts about my CPD folder if you want evidence!

I am incredibly flattered that you think positive training methods are my way.

Positive training is a highly researched, and a highly developed way of training, with academic and scientific evidence of its benefits - it has been around since BF Skinner first discussed and invented the operant conditioning chamber in the 1930's.

It is due to being open minded that I have changed my training methods and my occupation as I have studied in more depth the ways animals learn and the most appropriate ways to train them.

Positive training is used to get whales to wee in pots for urine samples, it is used to allow giraffes to have blood taken without the need for anaesthetics, it can be used for dogs to lie still in positions for x rays without the need for sedation. There are numerous examples of how successful and easy it is and how powerful the training is. All of the above would have been impossible to train using old fashioned force, aversive or shouting training.

Spero I am sorry that I missed Lilcampers very unusual outburst when I scrolled through the lengthy threads. Surprised you could be arsed to though so I still stick with the hysterical

Putting a little smiley face next to offensive posts doesn't make them any less offensive you know.

But I suspect you do know that.

It was unusual and for that I apologise Nutty, I do get incredibly frustrated occasionally! will be re reading Risë VanFleet 'The Human Half of Dog Training', and force my self to read some JF as penance

thanks Lilcamper, that is appreciated.