How do I get dog to do what I want without him growling?

[Buddy2go]

We have the loveliest show cocker 13 month dog. He's pretty well trained and normally really a joy to be with however...
Though he's not aggressive with his own food should he find anything while out he becomes aggressive and will snap when the food is removed. If he is comfortable / decides he wants to be somewhere we don't want him to be he'll growl when we try to move him. I can get round it by encouraging and enticing away but it feels like I'm rewarding the growling. I'd just like him to be more accepting of " it's time to move" .

I know I'm not in the best mood when asked to do something I don't want to do and understand his annoyance but the growling is not acceptable and I'd like to be able to say "no" without fuss .
Any ideas ?

Spero you have suppressed the behaviour and not dealt with the cause.

Resource guarding is very common and very easy to deal with.

Also, for a food orientated dog, being asked to leave a discarded burger alone is a situation of intense pressure, it really is!

No, I now have a dog who does not growl at me when I need to move the horrible old bone he is chewing on.

what is the problem with that?

He has also now learned not to challenge and bark at other dogs when we go for a walk - because I told him firmly 'no!' when he did and rewarded and praised him when he did not.

He has been trained. Which is what I am told we are supposed to do with dogs? I am not spending my time 'negotiating' with either animals or small children. If they do what I want, I praise and reward. If they don't, I tell them off.

It seems to work.

That's suppression, not training.

And now I have a dog who is lovely to be with, who will go on walks and sniff other dogs calmly instead of challenging them.

So it works for us.

I would not tolerate any dog growling at me in my own home, unless that dog was in pain.

affaf you are the type of vet I need :)

So negative reinforcement is completely out then? When my puppy was little and I was teaching her to step down the mouthing, I mostly used positive reinforcement and redirecting/calming, but on three occasions when she wasn't overly wound up but decided to mouth hard enough to hurt, I seized hold of her on either side of her scruff, glared at her hard, said "NO!" loudly and picked her up and plonked her outside on her own for a few minutes. Since then she has never bitten anyone. I used scruff, "NO!" carry and plonk for electric cable chewing. She did that twice at about 12 weeks old, and never again.
On two occasions when she chased sheep and one when she chased chickens I got downright punitive: whacked her round the arse with the rope end of the lead and roared at her. Ignored her on the end of the lead for a few minutes then set off as if nothing had happened. She was a bit subdued for a couple of hundred yards then her usual happy self. I felt a bit shit punishing her for doing what comes naturally but I have limited opportunities to train her around livestock and cannot afford to mess around with it - if she chases sheep, she'll get shot.
I told her off when she was in the act of wrecking a plant pot last week.
This has been about the height of my negative reinforcement training.
I don't think it's completely contraindicated in all circumstances.

Nobody suggests negotiating. You cannot negotiate with a dog, they don't have that capacity.

What you can do is understand the dog's motivation, identify its emotional state and try to change that to your benefit.

To dismiss fearful dogs as "brats" or resource-guarding dogs as "dominant" is to completely misunderstand them. If you feel frightened, or threatened, does someone telling you not to feel that way make you feel any different?

O yes. Negative reinforcement is completely off according to some who frequent these threads.

I have been told I am not fit to own dogs, people have expressed the hope that my dogs suddenly start acting badly.

Very weird. Fashions come and go in all things I suppose.

My dogs are well behaved and happy. they don't grow at me or anyone else. both negative and positive reinforcement have played a role in that.

That is positive punishment, grabbing a pup by their scruff is abuse, pure and simple.

I have grabbed my dog three times by the scruff when he was behaving appallingly.

I then put him outside for a few minutes.

He has not repeated that behaviour.

I would be interested to see whether you would report this to the RSPCA as 'abuse'.

I think that makes a mockery of what real abusive behaviour towards dogs is.

But no doubt this thread will shortly go the way of the last one I was on and will leave me asking again - why are some dog owners so deeply antagonistic and over the top in their condemnation of behaviour they don't agree with?

Negative reinforcement damages your relationship withyour dog - if your husband smacked you for looking at another man you'd probably stop doing it but it may change the way you feel about him, despite him being perfectly lovely the rest of the time.

affa, the OP said her dog was not aggressive with his own food.
I think dogs are unco-operative in the practice because it's an unfamiliar situation, and they have never been taught how to behave properly in pretty much any situation so what hope have they got? I do blame the owners for just accepting these behaviours from their dogs. How often have you heard owners wittering "he won't let me....(xyz)" in dogs they have had since puppyhood - even owners at adolescent health checks at 4-5months old wetly saying that their puppy will not let them do whatever. I do as much as I can; I press the phone numbers of the trainers into their hands but they just don't see the need to have a dog that they can handle and will be walked over for life. Have just been over to the APBC website and discovered that the person I was thinking of who was close to getting the qualification is now a full member. She's a bit further away than the other two trainers I mentioned but she's very good and I have sent clients to her in the past.

Positive reinforcement training is science based. It is not a trend or a fashion. It goes back to Pavlov and Skinner, operant and classical conditioning which works on any animal with a frontal lobe including us.

With all due respect, that is bobbins.

I have a lovely relationship with my dogs. I love them, and they love me.

I have boundaries around their behaviour and I reinforce them.

have also noticed that the APBC have some webinars coming up so will probably do those. I went to some of their stuff at the London Vet show a few years back and thought it was good.

Sorry, that response was to poster who said negative reinforcement would damage my relationship with my dogs. It manifestly has not.

Both positive AND negative reinforcement is required. Some behaviour is so serious or requires a quick response. I don't always have the time and I don't always think it is appropriate to start 'swopping' or distracting.

Sometimes it has to be a very firm no.

TIL that canine mothers abuse their babies! The BITCHES!

Spero people feel strongly about this because science has proven certain facts about dog behaviour and the perpetuation of negative reinforcement based methods flies in the face of that. If someone claimed the earth was flat, you'd argue with them because you know we've proven otherwise, right? This is the same thing :)

Yes, isn't that just how puppies learn with their mother and with each other? If they over step the boundaries, they get a nip, they yelp, that's how they learn. They also get lots of nuzzling and play time.

So a mixture of positive and negative reinforcement. How is that abusive?

I teach my dogs what is acceptable behaviour and ignore what isn't, the acceptable behaviour is rewarding so unacceptable becomes extinct. It isn't difficult.

Please point me to the peer reviewed scientific studies that show offering negative consequences for behaviour has no lasting impact on changing behaviour.

Because I have two dogs and one child that shows me that is not true.

Of course, if all I offered was punishment and blame my home would be a horrible place to live in. But I don't. When the dogs are good they are praised and rewarded. And almost always they want to please.

I am just at a loss as to why it is seen as 'abusive' to say 'no' to your dog and mean it.

You aren't a pup's mum, and they know it!

In any loving, trusting relationship, neither party harms the other :)

Lilcamper - I can't ignore my dog trying to chase and kill the cat. Some behaviour requires immediate and effective intervention. My dogs now live side by side with my cat.

Nor was I prepared to ignore weeing on the rug and growling at me. That behaviour also merited immediate and firm action.