How do I get dog to do what I want without him growling?

[Buddy2go]

We have the loveliest show cocker 13 month dog. He's pretty well trained and normally really a joy to be with however...
Though he's not aggressive with his own food should he find anything while out he becomes aggressive and will snap when the food is removed. If he is comfortable / decides he wants to be somewhere we don't want him to be he'll growl when we try to move him. I can get round it by encouraging and enticing away but it feels like I'm rewarding the growling. I'd just like him to be more accepting of " it's time to move" .

I know I'm not in the best mood when asked to do something I don't want to do and understand his annoyance but the growling is not acceptable and I'd like to be able to say "no" without fuss .
Any ideas ?

Which is what you are asking us to explain, in essence.

Ok, I will read in more detail. The problem i have is agreeing that a mixture of positive and negative reinforcement is 'aversive' training.

Can someone please explain why it is abusive to say 'no' to a dog?

why no is not useful

Your link says

The word ‘No!’ is the most over-used term in dog training – and yet surprisingly it has the least meaning to a dog. I often encounter clients who self righteously assure me that their dog ‘knows’ what ‘No!’ means. Often I reply that if he really does ‘understand’ the word ‘No!’ then why must they:
a) Repeat it constantly
b) Use an increasingly angry tone each time
c) Often accompany it with physical punishment
d) Do something else to stop the dog (i.e. pull him off Aunty Mavis, take the
e) shoes off him etc)

I don't have to do ANY of that. I say 'no' and my dog responds.

So I repeat - why is it abusive?

Your link goes on to say

As someone who can honestly say that I have never used the word ‘No!’ with my own dog I can assure you that it’s not a necessary word to use with a dog. In fact, it can do more harm than good. People that continuously bellow ‘No!’ at their dog are stressing out both themselves and the dog. They are clearly demonstrating a lack of ability to manage their dog’s behaviour and a need for training.
Below I have outlined some of the reasons that using the word ‘No!’ can be counter- productive.

Again, this is NOT what I do. I do not have to constantly bellow 'no' - because I have trained my dogs to understand acceptable behaviour.

You seem to have the wrong idea about how I treat my dogs.

Your link recommends

Be proactive rather than reactive. If you find yourself saying ‘No!’ constantly to your dog chances are that you’re not supervising him or managing him well enough – and you definitely haven’t trained him enough!

Which is certainly what I do. But not every situation can be anticipated or planned for. Sometimes decisive action is needed.

So why is saying 'no' abusive?

Your link recommends
Teach a ‘Cease and Desist’ Command
Teach your dog your dog a command such as ‘Ah Ah’ (often accompanied with a hand-clap), which cannot be said in a very scary manner.
The ‘Ah Ah’ command is designed to simply interrupt your dog’s behaviour, so that you can then re-direct him onto something appropriate to do instead. As soon as your dog is engaged the right thing, be sure to reward him.
Do not fall into the trap of saying ‘Ah Ah’ mindlessly and repeatedly. If you hear yourself repeating ‘Ah Ah’ too often then you are not managing your dog’s environment well enough.

So we agree enforcing clear boundaries is useful for the dog? And the only thing I do wrong is say 'no' instead of 'ah ah' ??

In response to the OP. Somebody upthread suggested a positive interrupter. I used this when my dog was younger and found it very effective. It wasn't for growling, but I did use it at any time she was doing something I didn't want her to be; when she had stolen a childs toy or chewing on my daughter's arm for example! I used a kissing noise, and whilst I dont need to use it in such situations now (as she doesn't do them amymore), it is the one way I can get her to look at me when I need her attention. I think I followed kikopups you tube video on how to introduce it.

Actually she still steals the odd toy (and always my bra). That's a lie!

Yes sorry to derail op.

But it does seem that the experts agree that clear boundaries are very useful to minimise stress for both owner and dog. there seems to be disagreement on how to enforce those boundaries.

Apparently 'no' isn't good but 'ah ah' will do.

Either way, I don't think its a good idea to allow a dog to growl at you at home.

Spero you should see if they will give your dog a place at the circus. She is clearly the only dog in existence who has generalised the word No so comprehensively and successfully that she actually understands its meaning in any context, when it is uttered only once!

Possibly she sees the accompanying threatening body language, hears the altered tone in your voice, and as she is a clever little dog she has built a close association between you saying "No" and some other negative outcome. So she desists. Not because she wants to stop but because she knows that a bad outcome may lie ahead. That is how dogs work.

Ok, so my dogs are the ONLY dogs in the world who understand the word no.

Despite the fact that lilcampers dogs understand 50 words, 'no' can't be one of them.

Ok. So whatever it is I am doing when I say 'no' - my dogs respond.

Please tell me WHY this abusive and ineffective. I think it is neither and I still have not been provided with any information to explain this, although I accept I have yet to read the Donaldson book you suggested.

But Lilcamper's links illustrate exactly what I am doing to provide my dogs with boundaries. This is not 'abusive' - it enables my dogs to live in my home, with a young child and a cat, to be walked in dog heavy areas and to go to the vet without causing me or them any stress.

if that makes me an abusive owner, so be it. Absent any prosecution from the RSPCA I intend to carry on exactly as I have been doing for past three years as it is clearly working well for all of us -dogs and humans - in my house.

"Please tell me why this is abusive and ineffective"

I think you know that someone suggested it was abusive to scruff a puppy and shout at them, not to use the word no.

And as I said, these techniques can be very effective.

You have yet to address the points raised about the effect of violence and intimidation within a relationship. And if it isn't intimidation, then why does your dog stop what she is doing when you say no? What's the incentive? Or is it just fear of the repercussions? At least be honest with yourself. By its very nature, punishment must be aversive for it to work, so you must admit you are using positive punishment by verbally scolding her.

I say no to my dog.

I never bellow or even *bellow continuously", as a whippet cross she is sensitive and would be worried for hours if I bellowed anything.

But I say a friendly "no" when she puts her paw on the sofa, looking at me, asking if she can climb onboard.

She gets this "no" and lies down somewhere else instead.

I seriously do not believe this is harmful. Some osters here are very my-way-or-the-highway, and even hysterical.

If you were in a situation where you were told no but not explained why or not told what you should be doing you would get frustrated and eventually just get fed up and do what you wanted to anyway unless the punishment for not stopping was bad.

However if you were in a situation where you were rewarded for stopping what you were doing and then told what to do you would be much for attentive and willing to understand the request. Still got boundaries but two happy willing keen relaxed participants in the training situation.

I know which scenario I would rather be in (and all dogs as well

it was abusive to scruff a puppy and shout at them, not to use the word no.

I took my small dog by the scruff of the neck on three occasions; one one occasion I said 'no' extremely firmly - I did not shout. On the other two occasions I simply said 'no' and put him outside.

I don't think any poster said they 'scruffed and shouted' ? It seems that this is what some posters want to hear as they are so wedded to their own theories that they abandon any capacity to actually try to understand what other people are doing.

I very much agree BravePotato. Sadly, this seems to be a feature of these threads; there are a certain number of posters who react furiously to any suggestion that a dog should ever be told off for bad behaviour - all and any situation can be dealt with by 'distraction' or 'rewards'.

I don't accept my relationship with my dogs is based on 'violence and intimidation'. The amount of times I have to say 'no' diminishes as they get older and come to understand the rules of the house. They no longer try to chase the cat, wee on the rugs or growl at me for moving food. Their incentive is I assume because they get lots of praise and positive attention for being 'good dogs'.

to talk of 'violence and intimidation' does come across I am afraid as hysterical nonsense.

In the interests of full disclosure and honesty I do recall two occasions when I did shout at the little dog - when he weed on my daughter's duvet in front of me and when he weed on the rug in front of me after I had just taken him outside.

He was obviously scared and flipped over on his back; I felt awful and I have not shouted at him since - and I haven't needed to. He now asks to be let out if the kitchen door is shut and wees in the garden. Whenever I see him doing that I praise him, say 'good boy!' and offer him a treat, he seems very pleased and his tail starts wagging.

But if I caught him weeing on the rug again I would say 'no' very firmly.

I don't accept our relationship is based on 'violence and intimidation'.

Obviously, if I shouted at him regularly in the way I described above this would be awful and I would expect him to be miserable and stressed. But I don't. And he isn't. He seems to understand perfectly well that I don't want him to wee inside and he makes an effort not to, which I recognise and praise him for.

Telling a dog off for weeing in front of you is likely to make them scared to do it in front of you and to find somewhere to do it in secret. By hey, you got lucky.

Scruffing some breeds of dog can make their eyes pop out of their head. It is just not necessary. There is no justification for it, ever.

We have bigger brains than our dogs. We need to use them. Bullying and intimidation is just that.

Loads of proof on this thread why in general vets shouldn't give advice on training/behaviour. Most of them don't know the difference between +P/-R etc.

Same with nutritional advice, more interested in flogging Hills Science Diet (you might as well feed Chappie) for the kickback.

Plenty of "I shouted at my dog and it stopped peeing on the rug/chewing" etc type replies I see. Yes, dogs are very forgiving. It's great that they often learn to do the right thing DESPITE their humans being useless trainers.

Horrified to hear a vet admit to abusing a dog.

Positive dog trainers have nothing to prove - we know our methods work well and we know our dogs are not stressed and are happy in our company.

We know our dogs want to do things we ask because they can rather than because they have to.

Loads of studies show how dogs brains react and the stress levels with old fashioned training methods and how they react to positive training.

Nearly all of the top competitive dogs in dogs sports will now be trained in positive methods and hence the standard is getting higher and higher. The old trainers are having to admit defeat!

Of course it is your choice.

I am certainly seeing a huge increase in positive trainers and at last seeing that most people do see the benefits - I guess there will always be that hard core cling onto the old group but it is getting smaller

The point is I use a mixture of positive and negative reinforcement.

Why is this abusive? Why is this bullying?

I have not shouted at either dog for about 7 months now and do not anticipate needing to do so again - but if a situation arose that needed decisive and firm response, I wouldn't hesitate.

What you have described is not negative reinforcement. It is positive punishment.

GottaGetThsOut I'm going for the negative punishment on Spero and ignoring her until I get the wanted behaviour - I will then praise like mad with positive reinforcement. (Although I think she is a bit stuck at free shaping and may need a bit of a lure but I am holding out for a bit!)