My puppy is in her first season

[SwimmingThroughSickLullabies]

She is 9 months old. Is it quite late for a first season? I was expecting it at about 6 months.

I will be breeding her with my other dog but not on her first season.

How long do you think it will be till her next season?

This is the first time breeding. I'm going to try it once and if it works out quite well I'll continue.

Swimming, IMO it would seem or at least you are coming across on this thread with a distinct lack of knowledge about breeding dogs or just dogs in general.
You dont seem to know anyway near enough about your own breed, I would expect even just a pet owner with no intention of breeding should know more than you.

Enjoy your dogs, I'm sure they're are lovely but they dont need to have puppies.

I have a genuine question for those of you in the know about breeding, i know there is at least one vet on this thread apologies if this has been answered already.

Can someone define for me a back-yard breeder?

Is it someone who doesn't breed show quality dogs?
Someone who doesn't breed KC registered dogs?
Someone who just breeds the one litter from their bitch because they like the idea of it?

What sets a reputable breeder apart from BYB?

I have had the privalige of owning three dogs as an adult, one was from what we felt was a good breeder (rottie - so we were very choosy!) The second dog was a rescue, another rottie who didn't come without his issues. Our last dog we got from a puppy because we wanted a dog to grow up with our DD who was 2 when we got him (not a rottie, a jrt). I would very much like to have another dog at some point, DD is nearly 7 now, I would actually be reluctant to take on a rescue after our experience with our second dog - don't get me wrong, we were aware of his issues etc, but a whole lot of extra issues appeared once he "settled in" which made him unsuitable for young children, we didnt have young children at the time but if we had it would have been a disaster. So whilst i wouldnt rule out a rescue dog completely, i would have to be 200% it would work out.

So that leaves me with the choice of buying a dog from a breeder. So who ARE the best people to get family pets from? From my point of view as an owner (i want a good temprement dog etc) and from dog welfare point of view?

Do i go to a professional breeder, who, whilst reputable etc etc, for them, the dogs are a business? Or do i go to the person who has decided to let their bitch have a litter of pups, kept a couple and sold the rest? Because that is what we did - Not deliberately, I actually wanted a border terrier and i visited countless people before we decided on bob the crossbreed. Some were profesional breeders but the pups whilst perfectly healthy etc etc were not kept in a family environment. There was one place we went that had bred from home and were a fucking nightmare (but thats a whole other thread) So i noticed an ad in a local paper for Border terrier/patterdale cross. I did some quick research on the patterdale and decided to go look at the pups. Against my judgement that says that buying dogs from local papers is a no no. But when we got there, it was a lovely family home, older children, the bitches basket was in the front room but she wasnt in the basket she was curled up on the sofa with a couple of the pups the other pups were curled up on the other sofa (cardinal dog sin ). I could tell straight away that the mum was possible not a full border terrier, but the people were honest, she showed me a picture of the dad who she said was her fathers dog. AND the puppies were £250 which was more than some of the pedigree borders i saw. They said that they were keeping two of the five puppies and were going to use the money from the others to get the bitch speyed. I believed them. So, i wanted a pedigree dog, but my GUT FEELING was that this was a lovely tempered, healthy bitch, the woman showed me the wormer they had been using, was happy to tell me who her vet was etc etc. The puppies were healthy and friendly so i took one home - that was getting on for five years ago now and my dog is just a little star, he helped me over a bout of depression and pretty much keeps me sane. I don't consider these people to be BYB i think they were genuine, i got the right dog for our family. I am an ex vet nurse so i suppose i knew what questions to ask etc.

I'm not sure what to think really, if we go for anotehr dog it may well be that we go for a specific large breed and that being the case i would be looking for a top quality breeder. However, a family Heinz 57 isn't a bad choice either.

Of course as i have advised the OP NOT to breed her dogs i agree with those of you that say that dog breeding for profit etc etc is wrong. There is also the argument of actually you don't need to buy a dog from a breeder at all when there are plenty of rescue dogs out there. Rescue dogs don't suit every family, or should i say, every family doesn't suit a rescue dog but i dont see why that family shouldnt have the pleasure of canine company.

I have issues with breeders of certain breeds of dogs that have health defects due to over breeding etc, those people aren't BYB.

I am, pretty confused about the whole shibang

The breeders that have overbred certain breeds of dogs are NOT responsible breeders. They may not be considered BYB but they are in no way responsible.

The point is. No one should breed from their dog because they are cute, lovely, good with children etc. That in itself is not a good enough reason.

To responsibly breed a dog, it is not done for profit. They fully health check their dogs, Hips, eyes, BAER whichever ones are appropriate and only if they are very healthy, happy examples of the breed would a decent breeder then consider the mating process. First they would have a list of potential owners in place before the mating.
Responsible breeders will only ever breed every few years if that. They do it to keep their particular breed going and to make sure every puppy they have is fit and healthy.

I am not a breeder so I dont know all the ins and outs of it and im sure someone with more knowledge can tell you more.

dooin posted an extract explaining what a BYB is on the previous page.

Iambooyhoo I have seen that now :) yes, i will for any future dog purchases i make, make sure that the breeder knows everything there is to know about cocker spaniels !!!! .

I think on reflection for me, i would only buy from a proper reputable breeder or a rescue. This thread had solidified those views for me. I think more and more people will take that attitude so that leaves again the advice for the OP

if a potential owner of your puppies is happy to buy from a BYB they are not the sort of owner you want for your puppies in the first place Seriously, you are on a hiding to nothing and could end up facing the possibility of giving your pups away to a very questionable fate indeed :(

yes as long as they know about CS then you're safe. regardless of what breed they actually own

For those interested in flexible rescues who don't lay down conditions that are difficult to meet I'd suggest Many Tears. They are very responsible and try to ensure dogs don't end up being returned, also very thorough home check. When we adopted our elderly Staffie we conceded that our working hours were not ideal, but they did help us come up with a scheme whereby he could be let out in the middle of the day and pointed out that there was someone at home over 28 weeks of the year (looking at our holidays, son at uni etc) so it was not a big problem.

The alternative would have been that our dog would have been in kennels for the rest of his life, in all probability, as no one wanted him. He also had a lucky escape from kennels as he is now very seriously ill and dependent on some very expensive specialist treatment and drugs to stay functioning - he would not have got that in kennels, but would have been PTS on health grounds.

Interesting thread. I do find it hard to see a clear line between irresponsible breeding/responsible breeding, though. For example, a responsible bulldog breeder surely breeds to standard, yet the standard is bad for the dog iyswim. So can you only responsibly breed certain dogs? For my part, I have no interest in breeding whatsoever. I have bred chickens, and I know what a nightmare it is to find good homes for unwanted animals (no one wants cockerels, unless as bait for cock fighting). I knew when hatching that if I hatched boys I might have to cull. There is so much responsibility in bringing life in to the world, regardless of species. Jasper had his bollockectomy back in January, and I'm quite happy that he won't get to sow any wild oats.

at bollockectomy!!

higgle i am torn also over rescue centre policies too. We got our rescue dog from battersea dogs home. We were asked lots of questions, but certainly not asked about our family planning (id have told them to fuck the fuckity fuck off) - we had our daughter who was 13 at the time. They did insist that DD come and meet the dog we eventually homed. I don't think they asked anything unreasonable though - They didn't do a house check either. I was working as a veterinary nurse at the time so they seemed happy with that. The woman from the behavioural department stalked us round the kennels to tell us about our dog who was at another centre. Pretty much on death row as he had been there for five months and was showing signs of kennel stress. I think they were pretty good with their assessments.

The dogs trust were quite a different kettle of fish i have to say - the people there seemed to take the assumption that everyone there was totally clueless about looking after dogs and the responsibility involved. They were very patronising. I can't go there, they have a non-destroy policy which while that seems all very lovely, it is barbaric to keep a dog indefinately kenneled when it is distressed by being kenneled and will develop both psychological and physical symptoms. :( I think what topped it for me was when my friend wanted a rescue dog to go with his nutty dog - he went along with his wife, answered all the questions and when they got to the bit about the vet check, and him having to say who his vet was, he said "well thats me, both my wife and i are vets" thinking that maybe a GOOD thing - the dogs trust would not let him home a dog because he didn't have an independent vet FFS! Another thing was when a friend of mine enquired about a specific dog, who they were well suited too etc, they were told no they coudlnt have him because that particular dog was going to be used in a publicity campaign later in the year Such a shame as i think the dogs trust are far to arrogant in their homing policies

Yes - dog ownership requires alot of commitment, common sense and responsibility, it does not however require a PhD in animal welfare.

On the flip side of that though, a mother at the school recently took on a GSD rescue - very nervy dog (theres a surprise) from a rescue centre. I happen to know this womans two previous dogs were always running loose, she has three young children, one still in a buggy yet she was given this dog with obvious issues- i asked her where she got him from and she said some rescue or another, i was its a time bomb, i can see it. She did for the first few weeks bring the dog to school but now i never see her walking it. I even wonder if she has kept her. :(

'flip side of that though, a mother at the school recently took on a GSD rescue - very nervy dog (theres a surprise) from a rescue centre. I happen to know this womans two previous dogs were always running loose, she has three young children, one still in a buggy yet she was given this dog with obvious issues- i asked her where she got him from and she said some rescue or another, i was angry its a time bomb, i can see it. She did for the first few weeks bring the dog to school but now i never see her walking it. I even wonder if she has kept her. sad' A lot of people get rescues and pounds mixed up. I would not reccomend anyone adopt from a pound, which is probably what this woman did.

Pounds do not homecheck or asses owners in most cases and rarely asses the dogs suitability for the family, they have little interest in what happens to the dog once it is out of the pound.

If you're confused/unsure whether a rescue you are looking at is a council pound ask about their rehoming policy, if they don't homecheck run a mile. Also ask them outright if they hold any contracts with the local council. Our local pound is called X Rescue , so it's easy to be mislead.

Many Tears is good and also smaller, independant rescues tend not have blanket bans, like the bigger rescues. There are loads of folk on here who know stuff about rescue and would more than happy to advise if any poster is thinking of taking on a rescue dog. Doris Banham passed me fostering, but unfortunately I was not able to help due to lack of transport and I have a pt job, no garden and 2 small children, so they also consider on case to case basis. I didn't find their questions intrusive or ott.

It was dogs trust and another local rescue (independent) that I was interrogated at. If they put me off and we were dead set on taking a dog into our family then how many other potentially responsible homes have the poor animals missed out on? I agree re: the council pounds though. There is one not too far from us and the dogs are not properly cared for, nervous and very stressy

That is sad to read Doinmecleanin To be fair, we are not in the right financial position for another dog at the moment, which is ironic because of coures, i am home to look after one! lol Then when i get a job............arggghhh

It is a really fine line. My best friend, who owned 2 JRTs to a ripe old age, looked into getting a young dog from DT/ rescue- she was rejected because she had a cat and children. She asked them "which is the problem- the cat or the children", although she admits she really doesn't know where she was going with that, as she probably wouldn't have considered getting rid of either to be allowed a dog

She later travelled miles to get a rescue from a less stringent rescue, and she adored him so much she went back for another. Her dogs are really well cared for, she has been a life-long dog owner. It seems a shame that she was rejected by rescue closer to home.

On the other hand, I have heard of the SSPCA prosecuting people for cruelty/ neglect to dogs that they themselves homed to them a few years previously It's hard to know how to call it. Too strict and some dogs may miss out on a great loving home. Too lax and it can mean total heartache for the dog. really difficult to get it right.

This is an interesting thread and, OP, I'm not on here to flame you, so do read on. :)

Firstly, I do think that, though it must be a difficult call for rescues, sometimes they have too many rules. We tried to get a rescue dog 10 years ago - my parents have always rescued dogs, and that's what we wanted to do. However, DD2 was 3 and nobody would even consider us, not the big rescues or our local independents. Our local rescue told us to go and get a puppy which would be more suitable. We got our sheltie from a breeder. I look back and think that breeder was awful (more than one breed, loads of dogs in cages barking). She had loads of show rosettes etc but it didn't make her good. She lied to us that he was used to a house and toilet trained, he was riddled with worms, he has had bad eyes his whole life, had not been socialised at all, and came with a whole host of issues. With love and care he became a lovely family pet but I feel guilty I put money into her hands.

We have been wonderful owners, though I say so myself and (though I wouldn't be without him, of course) what a shame we couldn't rescue a dog instead of funding this woman.

Our second dog, a bitch, came from a backyard breeder . I didn't know that term then; I hadn't been on doghouse and didn't know what I know now. She had a wonderful start in life compared to poor sheltie. I don't buy into the "all byb's are evil, uncaring, out to make money" theory at all. This lady really looked after the dog and pups, really loved them and said she would take them back any time, offered to have them every holiday rather than put them in kennels etc. Our pup was born into a wonderful home where she was really loved and cared for. The pups were all housed to friends of hers except one she kept and most were spoken for before birth. I think she was lucky in that respect. So far at 2 (and I have to admit, with a mutt you have no idea what the future holds in terms of health) she is very healthy, much more so than our sheltie has been.

However, I know the lady who bred her and I have to say she wishes she hadn't done it. Her dog and the puppy she kept from the litter have now both been spayed, which tells you something. She said it was enormous strain on the mother dog. This lady didn't sleep or go out for 8 weeks and she spend every hour of every day cleaning up and keeping an eye on the pups. The amount of food they ate was enormous and she said it cost her more in vet bills and food that the amount she got for the pups, so it cost her money overall. When the pups got to about 6 weeks, all mum's fur started falling out. That was yet another vet visit. The vet said it was hormonal and caused by all the stress. It did eventually grow back. However, her overriding feeling at the end of it was terrible guilt for having put her bitch through it all.

When we got our bitch we said the same as a lot of people do....ooh, she's such a lovely dog, such a lovely temperament, wouldn't it be cute to have a litter of puppies etc etc. But coming on here, reading links, looking at how many rescue puppies there are, thinking about the risk to our lovely bitch....well, it was a wake up call. It's easy to live in some fantasy land where all the puppies will have lovely homes and live happily ever after....but I suspect that is rarely the reality. She was spayed just before Christmas and I don't regret it for a minute. She can now just live her life out as a wonderful and much loved pet. :)

musicposy it sounds very much like the person you got your sheltie off was a BYB aswell. also, no-one here has said all BYBs are evil or out to make money. in fact i think several posters have said that alot of BYBs are kind caring people.

I would probably say Iambooyhoo that most BYBs are probably like the OP, well-meaning people who just aren't knowledgable enough to give the pups a good start etc. Not horrible money grabbers, although i suspect those are out there too, just that most BYBs don't fall into the second category.

I think there is an awful lot of snobbery surrounding dog breeding, I have seen many "professional breeders" think they know better than the vets, insisting that tail docking is an ok thing to do, MENTAL puppy diets that don't meet their nutritional needs. Poo pooing the nurtritionally balanced diets recommended by their vets and even going in the face of veterinary advice given to new owners - "oh but the breeder told me not to do that". I even had one breeder insist that she walked her belgian mastiff down the stairs because "you wont walk him slowly enough, you don't understand the breed" . Saying that, most of the breeders I encountered were great. I'm sure those of you who deal with dog owners know the particular "breed" im talking about

I think it is unreaslistic to think that policing breeding is going to prevent the amount of unwanted dogs in rescue centres. I think that the dog licence should be brought back, and that in order to have this licence you should demonstrate a basic understanding of dog care. You should should also have to MOT your dog, demonstrating that it has had basic health checks (im unsure about yearly vaccine's im still on the fence about the necessity of those - i am genuinely unsure) wormed etc, that your dog has not been involved in any incidents of aggression etc that have been reported to the police or council. Just like a car. If dog ownership came with those sort of legal hoops, people would think alot harder about taking them on. I don't think the license should be prohibitively expensive though, but maybe instead of a licence fee itself, maybe this could be used for the compulsary health check?

i would agree with you there goaway. of the people i know who have sold pups or talk about breeding from their own dogs they are all lovely friendly families who just want a litter out of their dog. my best friend is one of these people and she is the most kind hearted person i know. her DH suggested they breed a litter from their Goldie and they found another man locally who had a stud dog, he took a pup as his stud fee. this was about 6 years ago. best friend tells me now that the guilt she feels over it is tremendous. it wasn't until the delivery and the selling of the pups (they kept one) that she realised exactly what she had done. she says there were a couple of the new owners who she really wasn't happy about selling to but her husband was in charge of it so she had no say. she is my best friend but i would still say that she and her dh were BYBs that once. i also know of a man who breeds dogs as a 'hobby'. well that is what it is called but i have seen his house and yard and all the dogs there. it is a puppy farm. small scale but a puppy farm none the less although i'm pretty sure his wife would be horrified if she honestly thought that's what was going on in her back yard. tey really dont see what they are doing as puppy farming, only a hobby that makes them a good bit of extra money.

i also agree with you about teh licensing and annual MOT idea. we have license here in NI but they aren't enforced.

"musicposy it sounds very much like the person you got your sheltie off was a BYB aswell."

So how do you know who is and who isn't? She obviously did it for a living. She had rosettes everywhere, stuff from crufts, and her own line of pedigrees if that makes sense. Another sheltie breeder who had a waiting list of a year or more put me in touch with her. She made us sign a contract saying he wouldn't be bred from or shown, that he was to be a pet.

She had everything I had read a proper breeder should have......just that when I got there I had huge misgivings about the place which I should have listened to. He's been a lovely dog and he's not doing too bad for 10, don't get me wrong, but he had definitely had a bad start in life.

IAmBooyhoo your post describes the lady we got our dog from exactly. She just wanted a litter from her dog, citing what everyone does (she's such a lovely temperament, so cute etc). Afterwards she realised what she had done, the hard work, what she had put her bitch through, and the feeling that you have created another 7 little lives, 6 of whom you have no say in their welfare any more. I wonder how many other people there are like this, basically kind, caring, but maybe looking at the scenario with rose tinted glasses - who regret having done it.

Why was the dog licence got rid of? It seemed to me that things needed to be made tougher, not less tough.

i think what would have made me think your first dog was from a BYB was the fact there were other breeds of dogs, not just the one. that's usually an alarm bell. although that isn't to say people who breed more than one type aren't doing it for the right reasons. the only good breeders i have ever come across work with one breed only. also lots of dogs abrking in cages. that doesn't sound compatible with puppies raised in a home environment, used to being around children and pets etc. it sounds like my local pound (or the puppy farm i know of)

No, they definitely hadn't been raised in a home environment. She told me they had and took him inside when we visited, but as soon as we got home it became apparent he had never been in a house in his life . Definitely nowadays I would have huge puppy farm alarm bells...I just didn't know enough then.

It's a shame more can't be done in terms of educating people. I've learnt so much since I've been on here.

This has to be a wind up...

"It's a shame more can't be done in terms of educating people. I've learnt so much since I've been on here."

me too. before MN i though puppy farms were massive big places like battery chicken farms. i always knew that the puppy farm i know of was wrong. i always knew it wasn't how to raise pups or keep dogs but it was only after learning alot here and researching myself online that i realised it was a puppy farm. unfortunately where i live (i dont know if it's the same everywhere else) it seems to be totally normal that that's how you buy/get a dog. also, the amount of normal, decent lovely people i talk to who think nothing of asking me if i will breed from my dog (i wont). it seems amusing to them that i am so shocked they would think of it. dogs are seen as a commodity here i think. at least that's the attitude i seem to pick up about them. people talk about "getting their money back out of them" . nobody seems to think of what it is they are doing when they create 6/7/8 more doggy lives. those lives dont end when they hand them over to the new owner. these dogs go on living and some of them become the dog whose crap you drove your buggy through or the dog that ran infront of your car and caused an accident or the dog that attacked your friend's visiting grandchild.