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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

so I went to see some pups today and it was awful :-(

410 replies

AllergicToNutters · 11/03/2012 16:59

They were living in rank cages outside on concrete floors. The smell was horrid. There was Dad and a Portuguese pointer in a cage, Mum was sooo skinny and looked as if she had been bred and bred. The pups looked healthy enough but the one remaining pup ( so I had no choice in selecting one for us) was shaking and whimpering. He was absolutely beautiful but I didn't take him. I felt awful. The pups were kept in a shed away from the other dogs and Mum. They were clearly not 'indoor' dogs. Very sad and don;t know what I can do.....Sad

OP posts:
AllergicToNutters · 12/03/2012 12:07

lambethill was that post for me? My thread seems to have been hijacked somewhat! I ahve tried rescues for months and months with no joy. That's why I have gone for breeders instead.

OP posts:
lambethlil · 12/03/2012 12:15

Yes OP!

If you're having no joy from rescue centre, perhaps your living conditions are not compatible with dog ownership- small DCs, no outside space.

Rescue Centres want to home the dogs, so think about the reason!

london · 12/03/2012 12:18

Thanks Slubber that is really helpful. I was concentrating all my research on looking after a puppy and making sure we could do all that you need to. I am just becoming aware - largely through mumsnet - that actually getting hold of one is a minefield - cf Chicken's story ....

CrunchyFrog · 12/03/2012 12:33

This is very interesting!

We've (my Mum and I) had mongrels for the last 20 years or so, mainly because the pure bred German Shepherd that we had back then had a horrible death due to a genetic illness (it was not a backyard breeder, she was bought from a proper person with lineage and checks etc - obviously back then checks were less thorough.) She only lived 4 years, then developed uncontrollable epilepsy which led to behaviour changes- severe aggression and confusion. It was very distressing for everyone.

Since then we've mainly gone for basic collie or lab shaped crosses. They've mostly been great, long lived and good family dogs. The first came from Wood Green, and was the best dog I've ever known - she was wonderful. We were converts from then on!

We always have our dogs spayed (we only ever have females) because we don't want to contribute to the problem. At least one of mum's current dogs is at least a bit Staffie, there are so many of those about.

TBH I wouldn't even consider going to a breeder when there are so many perfectly good dogs sitting in shelters or (worse) the council pound. (I wouldn't go to the council pound again though, the dog we got from there has had severe behavioural problems all her life. You are under immense pressure there, knowing that if you don't take the dog it will be destroyed.)

ChickensHaveNoLips · 12/03/2012 12:33

Finding a good breeder is a minefield. I was (allegedly) rehoming a much loved puppy which the owner couldn't keep due to a change in circumstance. I fell for the sob story, and I saw Jasper and fell in love (naturally, all puppies are adorable). I spent a fortnight thinking that I had 'rehomed' a dog. I didn't even 'pay' for him, I offered money to the 'owner' because I felt so bad for her! (She made it clear that she'd paid £450 for him, plus all of his jabs etc. I offered to pay, she said no, I insisted, she said ok then. I handed over £250). It was only when I saw another advert, realised it was the same story, seller and breed of dog, that I realised what an idiot I'd been. Looking back, there was something off about it, but I was caught up with the excitement of getting my much wanted puppy. I was an idiot. I would never obtain a dog through word of mouth/private ads again. When I realised what had happened, I contacted the dog warden and the RSPCA to see if anything could be done. I never heard anything back from either of them, but i did get the advert taken down from Preloved. She probably had to go to the trouble of re-registering before she could offload any more pups :(

AllergicToNutters · 12/03/2012 12:41

lambethill - you have jumped to a lot of conclusions there!!! I own my own semi det house with a sizeable fenced in garden, my dc's are 6 and 12, I have one cat, I am a stay at home Mum by choice and have no need to work so I meet the criteria for moist rescues but I won't drive on motorways/fast roads so I am restricted by how far out I will go for a dog. I haven't been refused by any rescues I just have not found what I am looking for. I have passed a homecheck by a rescue but then I backed out because the dog was poorly and the chances were it was going to have ongoing medical issues. so there! Smile

OP posts:
AllergicToNutters · 12/03/2012 12:42

most rescues - not moist rescues Blush

OP posts:
NeshBugger · 12/03/2012 12:43

Er, sorry to take what is a serious discussion off track somewhat but I have a daft question...

If you take a rescue dog who's about 3-4 yrs old and you don't like his name, particularly if it's doesn't sound very friendly and you're going to feel like a right tit calling it out aloud, can you change it without causing him some post-homing trauma?

OldBagWantsNewBag · 12/03/2012 12:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChickensHaveNoLips · 12/03/2012 12:57

When I went around our local RSPCA shelter a few years ago, all the dogs had middle aged lady names. So Sheila, Pam, Janet, Patsy etc. Even the dudes. The volunteer told me it amused the staff to pick a theme Grin

AllergicToNutters · 12/03/2012 13:08

i actually love the old fashoined names. I'd love a dog called Gloria or Arthur

OP posts:
NeshBugger · 12/03/2012 13:12

It's on behalf of my ILs who are fretting. They've had yorkies, staffies and jack russells in the past who've all had names like rosie, lassie, lucie... you get the picture. They are considering taking on a lovely natured staffie that goes by the name of....Slash.

Grin
Flatbread · 12/03/2012 13:16

Our neighbour's female dog is called Gloria. Really suits her, she is a very pretty, gentle girl. Their male dog is called Eliot (pronounces as el e o) we call him smellio and he comes to us happily each time with a big smile.

D0oinMeCleanin · 12/03/2012 13:17

We had no idea what my ex poundie was called because he was found straying and un chipped.

Renaming him does not seem to have bothered him.

Some clever behavioural folk even argue that it is better to change the name to reinforce that things have changed and their are new boundaries and rules.

Dogs don't get attatched to their names the way we do. It's just another command to them like 'look at me' etc.

Flatbread · 12/03/2012 13:20

Slash Grin

Flatbread · 12/03/2012 13:24

Well, a suitable name if your ILs want to build up street cred Grin

Name really doesn't matter. Call him by his new name, and every time he responds give him a treat and he will associate new name with good things.

wannaBe · 12/03/2012 13:26

while I personally wouldn't breed from any animal of mine, I do think it is incredibly arrogant to assume that A, only a (reputable, which appear to be in the minority) breeder and (reputable, which appear to be in the minority) rescue can possibly know how to rehome a dog responsibly, and B, that anyone who gets a dog from anywhere other than A is a bad dog owner who will end up dumping it.

Would I buy a puppy from the services on the m4 - not a chance. But would I take one from a neighbour whose dog had had puppies, knowing that her dogs are well loved, well cared for, that although their existance was an unfortunate series of events where perhaps a female had got out while in season (for instance), that she was going to find good, loveing homes for them and get the bitch spayed asap? yes probably. And in truth, even the person who takes the puppy from the breeder who is prepared to deliver it to them on the Bristol junction isn't necessarily a bad owner. Perhaps a little misguided because giving money to these people does fuel the supply of such puppies, but often people who buy them have the right intentions - to give them good, loving homes. You don't need a rescue or a breeder to tell you whether or not you can be a good owner. And ultimately, these puppies have to go somewhere. I wouldn't want one because I wouldn't want to give money to someone who overbreeds their dogs and thus encourage them to continue doing so. But if I then walk away from a litter of eight week old puppies, what do you think happens to them? Even if you report the breeder to the RSPCA there are no guarantees. They don't simply walk in and shut down these breeders - it just doesn't happen like that. So the puppies, who are already in existance, end up with an even more miserable life. Which is why so many people do actually decide to bite the bullet and take them on regardless of the risks. It's simply not as black and white as people on here like to make out.

And just because someone answers the questions a breeder asks doesn't make them any less likely to end up dumping the dog on the motorway when the going gets tough, or leave it shut up all day every day while they go out to work having told the breeder they intend to hire a dog walker/be at home for the majority of the time. Once a breeder (or rescue for that matter) hands over a puppy you have no idea where it could end up.

And who decides what is and what isn't a reputable breeder and what makes for good and bad trates?

Incidentally, the labradoodle came into existence because they were considered a good match as guide dogs for those owners who have allergies. The result was a bit of a disaster, as they were crap as guide dogs, and after that they were presumably rehomed and became a bit of a designer dog. No-one faulted their being bred for guide dogs, yet somehow it's wrong to have one as a pet? Similarly with cockerpoo's - hearing dogs breed them and that's ok because ... for whatever reason they make good hearing dogs, but want one as a pet and that is somehow wrong? Surely it's either wrong, or it isn't.

And for those saying that it's wrong to breed cockerpoo's/labradoodles etc - why? Someone is going to breed them. whether people like it or not there is a market for these dogs. Surely it is better that there be people out there who genuinely care about these animals who will breed them responsibly?

Guide dogs breed their own dogs for inteligence/trainability/suitability as guide dogs. The pass rate for guide dogs bred puppies vs donated puppies is considerably higher - about 90% vs about 50% iirc. Yet it's got to a point now where more and more guide dogs are being withdrawn earlier due to behavioral problems, and a vast amount of the argument behind that is inbreeding - the lines have become so inbred now that there are more and more problems. There are very few of the health problems, but there are a lot more of the behavioral problems. One of the most common guide dogs is the lab retriever cross. Yet of all the dogs I know who have been retired early due to behavior, they have all been crosses. They tend to be either incredibly stubbern or highly strung. And yet there aren't any calls for guide dogs to stop breeding their own puppies because of what they're doing to the lines, why is this? Because they're working dogs and that somehow makes it ok?

NeshBugger · 12/03/2012 13:28

Ah good, will tell ILs. MIL has been trying to come up with a name that's like Slash but isn't with lots of unhelpful ideas from family. Have no doubt that when I meet Slash he'll be a flower or something frilly,

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 12/03/2012 13:32

Nesh - our second dog is a 4 year old lab cross bitch, rehomed from the Dogs Trust - and they told us that we should change her name - the theory was new name, new start. During the teaching session we had with the Dogs Trust member of staff before we adopted the dog, he told us how best to teach her the new name, and it has worked a treat. She seems utterly happy with her new name, and it doesn't seem to have caused her any issues at all.

Flatbread - as a scientist, did you not realise what might happen if you allowed an entire dog to play with your on-heat bitch?

wannaBe · 12/03/2012 13:37

"If you take a rescue dog who's about 3-4 yrs old and you don't like his name, particularly if it's doesn't sound very friendly and you're going to feel
like a right tit calling it out aloud, can you change it without causing him some post-homing trauma?"

I have guide dogs, and they come pre-named. And some of the names given to guide dogs are bloody awful. It's one of a guide dog owner's worst fears - that you'll get a dog with some god awful name.

They're named according to the alphabet, and guide dogs haven't taken out any of the letters. So for instance, when I trained with my first dog, there was another dog on my class called 'yuma'. Someone I know trained with half the litter of q', so there was quila, quil, quazar...

David blunkett's second dog was called uffer.

Oh yes, and now we have the addition of sponsorship into the mix, we get companies sponsoring dogs to the tune of enough money that they also get to pick its name, and often dogs are simply named after the company sponsoring them, so afaik there was a shell (after the garage who sponsored it, Grin) , a hewlett (after hewlett packard ) and so on. Grin

I'm on my 3rd dog now (second was withdrawn after three years, as per above post) and they've all had fairly sensible names, although the second one had a bit of a name that I would have considered more of a girly name for a dog, but it actually suits him).

AnEcumenicalMatter · 12/03/2012 13:38

Nesh, I change md the name of my rescue dog. It didn't phase him at all. He didn't answer to his old name anyway and, 8 years on, he doesn't answer to his 'new' one either.

I blame the breeding Wink Grin

LtEveDallas · 12/03/2012 13:49

WannaBe,

I agree with much of what you say, however one of the major reasons with going to a reputable breeder or (preferably) reputable rescue is that they will offer a 'full life' commitment.

Daft example for you:

I may get a dog today whilst I am happily married, solvent and healthy.

A year later my husband has run off with the au-pair, remortgaged the house to pay of his gambling debts and left me suffering crippling depression and about to be made homeless, living on the street.

Because I got my dog from a reputable rescue I know that I can call on them, explain that I can no longer keep the dog, and they will take her back until she is rehomed with someone who can look after her.

If I had got her from a backyard breeder (like the one the OP has been to) would they take her back?

I know when we rehomed MuttDog we signed a contract that said she would always 'belong' to the rescue and that we were not allowed to rehome her privately if we decided she was not for us. Now I don't know if that contract would stand up 'legally', I suspect it wouldn't, but it was a gesture that made me feel much more secure.

OP an awful lot of rescues have dogs in Foster Homes that may be closer to you, and some are willing to move dogs to foster closer to potential owners to check suitability. We had MuttDog moved to a foster 2 hours from us, rather than 6 hours to the centre. Have to tried that?

Flatbread · 12/03/2012 14:06

SDT, you seem really interested in my dog Smile

I took my dog in because she was being sent to a rescue. I wanted a dog, and would have been just as happy with a mongrel. As I mentioned in the previous thread, my neighbours left their dogs over Christmas and went off to Paris. I took their dogs in because I was worried about the cold.

We had put their male dog in a shed while we were working on the land, and he escaped. If we had actually owned him, we would have already set up a strong pen for him.

I love the pups. They are very healthy and happy. I have had a number of friends and work colleagues ask for pups, but have decided on the dog trust route because the trust has told me they have a waiting list for puppies and I do think people who are doing the responsible thing of getting dogs from rescues should be rewarded with lovely, well-adjusted pups like mine.

I honestly don't get the hand-wringing from those who advocate getting dogs from breeders! If there is an overpopulation of dogs, no dog should breed. but if we need a new stock of pups, them mine are probably healthier on average than your purebred from a professional breeder.

I showed the stats from published journal articles on how mongrels are healthier than purebreds. Well, some additional interesting UK data from Churchill pet insurance (courtesy onekind.org) which shows that mongrels live longer and need less care than purebred dogs.

Cost of a pedigree
According to data collected by Churchill Insurance in the UK.
The vet and other treatment costs for a purebred dog are likely to be considerably more than for a mongrel. Mongrels are healthier and have higher life expectancy

Type of Dog Avg Annual Avg life
treatment cost expectancy
Great Dane £1697 10 years
Bulldog £1191 8 years
Basset Hound £768 12 years
Springer Spaniel £715 12 years
Jack Russell £607 12 years
Lab-Retriever £505 13 years

Mongrel £403 16 years

You might argue that people take more care of their pure-breds and hence spend more money on them. But in that case they should have longer life expectancy than a mongrel. But this data and other journal studies show that mongrels are healthier, need less care and live longer than your designer dogs.

So unless you have data to back up your claims, I am really am not interested in all this empty talk about these mythical wonderful professional breeders and how it is really the responsible thing to produce and buy so called superior pedigree and designer dogs.

D0oinMeCleanin · 12/03/2012 14:11

Flatbread you do realise that your dogs are crossbreeds and not mongrels don't you? Which puts them at risk of hereditary disease from both parental breeds, especially since niether dog has been screened for possible problems prior to breeding, which is what a responsible breeder would have done.

MiseryBusiness · 12/03/2012 14:20

I thought the life expectancy of dogs was more to do with size etc?

Dont chihuahua's potentially have long lives because they are quite small and they are certainly 'designer dogs' these days!

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