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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

so I went to see some pups today and it was awful :-(

410 replies

AllergicToNutters · 11/03/2012 16:59

They were living in rank cages outside on concrete floors. The smell was horrid. There was Dad and a Portuguese pointer in a cage, Mum was sooo skinny and looked as if she had been bred and bred. The pups looked healthy enough but the one remaining pup ( so I had no choice in selecting one for us) was shaking and whimpering. He was absolutely beautiful but I didn't take him. I felt awful. The pups were kept in a shed away from the other dogs and Mum. They were clearly not 'indoor' dogs. Very sad and don;t know what I can do.....Sad

OP posts:
midori1999 · 11/03/2012 21:24

cedmonds I hate to say it, but the KC accredited breeder scheme as it stands is a waste of time. Health tests are not compulsory and there are a lot of BYB's and puppy farmers on it, it doesn't encourage good breeding practices at all.

If anyone wants a pedigree puppy, the best place to find one is via the breed club. They can refer you on to a responsible breeder who is considering a mating or has an imminent litter and may have spaces on their waiting list or end up witt more puppies than they have waiters. You are likely to have to wait longer this way, as it's quite unlikely anyone will actually have puppies and one available, but people do drop out and things go wrong, so you never know. KC registration is the minimum standard.

Flatbread lots of people want a dog that they have some certainty what it will turn out like. Size, looks temprement etc. You simply do not get that with crossbred or mongrel puppies. (you may well get it with an adult rescue dog) Look at the difference between the looks of all the Labradoodles. BTW, you only have to look at the Labradoodles to see that 'hybrid vigour' hasn't worked for them. They carry all the health problems of the parent breeds as can any crossbreed or mongrel. (and as crossbreed dogs aren't true hybrids, why would they have hybrid vigour anyway?)

By selectively breeding dogs and really knowing the breed inside out, the various bloodlines etc as well as properly health testing dogs, it's possible to gradually eliminate health problems and reduce the incidence, for example, of hip dysplacia, as well as improving either working ability and/or temprement.

You're right. We don't selectively breed humans and look at all the genetic disorders and health problems we carry. I've got one child with possible aspergers, one with Downs Syndrome, have had twins prematurely and had recurrent miscarriages. If I were a dog I would never be allowed to breed...

feesh · 11/03/2012 21:24

Flatbread, I said on your thread the other day that I agreed with some of your views about genetics. The trouble is that all this stuff you are spouting about natural breeding is completely irrelevant to any domesticated species.

I have a biology degree and some of the things you are coming out with remind me of my own views when I was about 12, when I was very idealistic and didn't understand genetics or the relationship between humans and animals.

I totally agree that in an ideal world, both the human and canine gene pools would be as widely mixed as possible and there wouldn't be any differences between race or breed.

But how do you envisage this working in real life? Let all dogs run around un-neutered and shagging eachother willy nilly? With no natural predators, injuries, food scarcities or disease to naturally control the population?! Without these natural disasters, natural selection doesn't work!

With the relationship between dogs and humans the way it is, your ideal will never become a reality - it can't. All you would succeed in doing is creating a massive over population with little genetic strength.

I live in the Middle East and there are strays on every street corner living utterly miserable lives. Why? Because the locals don't believe in neutering and they do believe in letting nature take its course with regard to matings. It's awful for the dogs and it's doing no favours for the species.

This pattern is repeated around the world, Spain, Greece, Mexico, Kenya - you name it. There are millions more dogs on this planet than there are kind homes for them. And that sucks for a species which was bred to be entirely co-dependent on humans. There is nothing 'natural' about any matings between any dogs under any circumstances.

daisydotandgertie · 11/03/2012 21:26

Chickens, I made myself laugh too Grin.

Am v glad someone else appreciated it Grin.

midori1999 · 11/03/2012 21:26

And yes, Allergic, no matter how hard it must have been, you did the right thing by walking away. I realise that must have been very hard for you. Please do not feel bad. Unscrupulous people who breed puppies are very, very good at creating a good initial impression and at conning people.

If you contact the breed club in your area, they can point you in the right direction. Please do not look on the KC website, it is a minefield. 90% of KC registrations are from 'volume breeders', eg. puppy farmers, so you can see only a small percentage will be from reputable breeders once BYB's are also taken into the equation. Sad

feesh · 11/03/2012 21:27

By the way Flatbread, my own dog was found on the street as a puppy. She is a right old mix of breeds. Could lead to hybrid vigour and she could live until she's 22 and have no health problems at all. On the other hand, for all we know, she could be the result of a 'natural' mating between a brother and sister or father and daughter, and a lifetime of genetic problems may lie in store for us to deal with. Come out to the Middle East and see how successful 'natural' matings really are.

Gemtubbs · 11/03/2012 21:35

I think that responsible breeding for healthy, happy pets and companion animals is fine. I don't like the breeders breeding purely for cosmetic looks in animals. Flatter faces, an extra curl in their tail and a ridge back etc. The puppies without these "highly desirable" qualities are often euthanized despite being otherwise healthy.

Flatbread · 11/03/2012 21:36

Considering how much it costs to breed a litter of puppies and rear them, then if puppies were only given away for free, dog breeding would be exclusively for the rich

So, you prefer the alternative of breeding dogs for money instead?

And why is it irresponsible that my dog has puppies once in her lifetime, but it is not irresponsible to breed dogs for money? After all, the incentive for a professional breeder is to breed as many as possible. Why not stop that and go to the shelters instead?

I simply have not seen any substantive argument for this dog designer industry. So it is responsible if you breed for money, but irresponsible if any other dog has puppies, as nature intended? What a cruel and ignorant argument.

MiseryBusiness · 11/03/2012 21:43

Flatbread - I think you are willfully missing everyones point about responsible breeders.

Most responsible breeder dont make much money at all and very rarely breed their dogs.

They should not be mistaken for BYB (such as yourself) or puppy farmers who are in it to make money and produce lots of so called pedigree puppies.

Flatbread · 11/03/2012 21:47

I am not advocating that dogs just mate randomly and frequently. Obviously people need to be responsible and make sure their dog has either no litter or only once in their lifetime.

Breeders on the other hand, are incentivised to have many litters. How is this better?

No one has given a good reason for why an ordinary family needs a pedigree dog? For example, we all have known aggressive and submissive labs and the whole range in-between. So if you want a certain temperament, then observe the pups or grown dogs and then choose a suitable one.

The only arguments I have heard for pedigree and selective breeding is that of eugenics. And i will repeat this again, eugenics is not suitable for any living being which is not bred for a specific purpose.

AnEcumenicalMatter · 11/03/2012 21:52

Flatbread, you are still mistaking responsible, ethical breeders for back yard breeders and puppy farmers.

Good breeders breed with health and temperament in mind; to try to improve the breed with each generation. Given that most can't keep more than maybe 5 or 6 dogs at a time and that they will usually have a litter when they want to keep something for themselves to continue their breeding, that means a litter every few years. Not several per year. Taking into account the health tests that they wil undertake in an effort to breed out known genetic conditions and stud fees (including travel as the best, most compatible stud may be at the other end of the country...or in another country altogether) cost of rearing the litter, vet fees etc, there will not be a lot of profit, if any, to be made. Especially in breeds where small litters are the norm.

Back yard breeders and puppy farmers are the ones churning out pups for cash.

And people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You have no idea what lies behind your bitch (who was the result of an accidental mating) and the sire (a random cross who wandered onto your property) that could show itself in pups in future. Hopefully, for the sake of their new owners, they will be ok. But don't worry because the good folks at the Dogs Trust will be there to pick up the pieces if the worst happens.

london · 11/03/2012 22:01

Slubberdegullion and others, we are looking to buy a cockapoo puppy (I know - 'fad', 'designer dog' etc. but have done some research and I do think it is a cross breed that wld suit us) so no breed club. The whole finding a good breeder thing is scary. Apart from the health questions - what other questions should we ask before visiting??

Flatbread · 11/03/2012 22:02

Anecu, lol, personal attacks, when you have no arguments, eh?

I am very happy with my pups who are strong and healthy. I have no desire for a designer dog, created by your revered 'professional breeder'. I am giving them to the dog's trust because they have a waiting list of responsible owners who want a good pup, not pay for a designer dog.

This makes me, and my pups future owners responsible, unlike your breeders and designer dog lovers who are exchanging money and pretending they producing and buying superior dogs, while the reality is that pedigree dogs have a higher incidence of genetic weakness and require greater vet care and bills over their lifetime.

feesh · 11/03/2012 22:06

Flatbread, I agree with you about questioning why a family needs a pedigree, but that doesn't justify your current litter of pups.

Why can't you just admit that your current litter of pups was irresponsible?

Yes there is a healthy debate to be had around which other types of breeding are irresponsible, but there is nobody who is ever going to say to you, 'Well done, you did a really good thing there bringing another litter of pups into this world'.

Don't try and use others' shortcomings to justify your own, it's a weak argument.

If there's one thing I've learned from studying genetics, it's that the type of responsible breeding which goes on which produces strong (and WANTED) pedigree pups, or tomatoes, or whatever else humans are breeding for their own needs, is done by people who really understand the genes of what they are 'copying' from.

Whereas you don't know if your puppies are carrying two copies of the recessive gene for hip dyslpasia, or whatever.

You have raised some interesting points for debate. However, it absolutely does not justify that litter of puppies you were responsible for bringing into this world.

Sorry OP.

feesh · 11/03/2012 22:09

London, the Hearing Dogs charity is currently breeding cockerpoos - could be worth contacting them to see if it's possible to rehome any rejects? Alternatively, on the off chance you live near one of their centres, maybe you could consider being a puppy socialiser for them, which is an incredibly rewarding way to have a dog.

Flatbread · 11/03/2012 22:12

From the BBC show on pedigree dogs

Pedigree animals make up 75% of the seven million dogs in the UK and cost their owners over £10m in vets? fees each week. The programme, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, says dogs suffering from genetic illness are not prevented from competing in dog shows and have gone on to win ?best in breed?, despite their poor health. It says physical traits required by the Kennel Club?s breed standards, such as short faces, wrinkling, screw-tails and dwarfism, have inherent health problems.

Other problems occur because of exaggerations bred into dogs by breeders trying to win rosettes, it adds. The programme shows a prize-winning cavalier King Charles spaniel suffering from syringomyelia, a condition which occurs when a dog?s skull is too small for its brain. It also features boxers suffering from epilepsy, pugs with breathing problems and bulldogs who are unable to mate or give birth unassisted.

It says deliberate mating of dogs which are close relatives is common practice and the Kennel Club registers dogs bred from mother-to-son and brother-to-sister matings. Scientists at Imperial College, London, recently found that pugs in the UK are so inbred that although there are 10,000 of them, it is the equivalent of just 50 distinct individuals. Steve Jones, professor of genetics at University College London, said: ?People are carrying out breeding which would be first of all entirely illegal in humans and secondly is absolutely insane from the point of view of the health of the animals. ?In some breeds they are paying a terrible price in genetic disease.?

london · 11/03/2012 22:12

Thank you feesh! Will check

midori1999 · 11/03/2012 22:12

Gemtubbs "The puppies without these "highly desirable" qualities are often euthanized despite being otherwise healthy"

The above is absolute nonsense. Out of a litter of pedigree puppies, 1, maybe two or three if you are very lucky, will be of good enough quality to show and most pedigree puppies go to pet homes anyway. Long, long gone are the days when breeders culled undesireable puppies, only a very small few unscrupulous and disgusting people would do that these days. How many white boxers or GSD's do you see about? Quite a few indeed.

Flatbread, apologies, but you are demostarting your ignorance in this matter even further. There are 'breeders', people who happen to breed their dogs, be that peopel who breed their pets for whatever reason, deliberately or accidentally, for money or not and puppy farmers who churn out litter after litter with not a thought for health, temprement or anything else and do not health test their dogs and yes, do make money because everything else is compromised in order to do so. Then there are 'reputable breeders'. People who usually keep their dogs also as their pets and companions, who spend a huge amount of time with their chosen breed of dog and generally immersing their whole selves in all things doggy, who show or work their dogs or both, who make it their business to know every single thing they can about that breed, the different blood lines and the quirks each one has, the individual dogs and what they are personally like etc etc. These people usually breed when they want another puppy to keep themselves and show/work and then any other puppies in the litter are sold on. Most people like this will breed once a year at most, often every 5 or 6 years and will spend far more on their hobby than they ever make back on what is left after expenses on one litter. 9 puppies x £700 (even per year) does not £6,300 profit make. It costs half that to breed and rear a litter , maybe all of that or more than that in some cases. Then there may be time taken off work or self employment to take care of those puppies or to pay someone to supervise them constantly, usually 24/7 in the first few weeks. Dog shows cost hundred of pounds to enter and attend. On top of that, unlike with horses, for example, the best breeders and best stud dog or best puppies do not command a higher price than the rest, they all cost the same to breed, so they are all worth the same money. No money in breeding dogs ethically and properly at all.

As for why people need a pedigree pup. Yes, we all know badly tempered Labs or Labs that don't look like Labs. Why? Because of irresponsible breeders and if over 90% of pedigree dogs are bred irresponsibly, there aren't many responsibly bred left, are there? However, responsibly bred pedigrees mean you know what you are getting.

AnEcumenicalMatter · 11/03/2012 22:18

Personal attack? Where? A statement of fact is not a personal attack.

And I have plenty of arguments, thanks. I am just choosing not to waste them on someone whose has proven that they are only interested in and point of view (however misguides) that lends justification to their irresponsibility.

So I'll leave you to it. Again.

midori1999 · 11/03/2012 22:20

Flatbred, is all you know about pedigree dogs from that programme? That seems to be your total knowledge on them. As I said, over 90% of pedigree dogs are irresponsibly bred. The KC does have it's failings, but improvements are being made and have been being made for years before that programme. The programme was factually incorrect on a number of points.

Your puppies could well all grow up to have hip dysplacia, seeing as this is something that occurs in all three breeds in their make up and the parents weren't hip scored, nor did you know the hip scores of any of their ancestors. Of course, they may well look healthy and strong now and then in a year their owners are facing thousdands of pounds worth of surgery because even if they take out insurance, it won't cover congenital defects.

On your thread yesterday a vet told you that crossbreeds aren't necessarily healthier than pedigrees, for the reasons mentioned above, you chose to ignore it then and no doubt you will choose to ignore it now.

AllergicToNutters · 11/03/2012 22:24

anyway anyway anyway.........I have now contacted another breeder (recommended by Daisy on this thread) and she has three pups availalble from her current litter. As she is highly recommended, I may yet get a beautiful new addition for our family. I am hoping so. I'll keep you posted Smile

OP posts:
SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 11/03/2012 22:28

London, I have a friend who breeds Cockapoos, in Essex. She is extremely dedicated to her breed. I know that has a waiting list. I truly believe she is a good breeder. She won't let her pups go to just anyone, and will turn you away if she doesn't think you are suitable. I can pass your number on to her if you would like.

midori1999 · 11/03/2012 22:29

Good luck! Smile

london, what do you think you will get from a cockerpoo that you won't get from a cocker spaniel or poodle out of interest?

RedwingWinter · 11/03/2012 22:30

Flatbread, I think you are conflating 'pedigree' with 'responsible breeder'. Many 'pedigree' dogs come from puppy mills and backyard breeders.

midori1999 · 11/03/2012 22:31

Saggy, I'd be interested in what you think makes your friend a good breeder? Not to say she isn't, but I see no reason to breed them except money personally... Cockerpoos aren't a breed BTW...

Flatbread · 11/03/2012 22:38

I am not justifying my choices at all. What I am questioning is your trust and reliance on professional breeders for healthy puppies.

I disagree that breeders can actually produce healthier pups in the long run. Natural selection and genetic diversity will lead to a hardier and more resilient species.

I disagree that labs that are aggressive or bad nature are simply due to the 90% of bad breeders in your example. Lol. Dogs are not McDonald burgers that you can get the exact taste and characteristics you want from the right type of production line. If you want a gentle dog, get a gentle dog by observing the stock at hand, don't try to breed a specific strain of dog for this.

I agree that there are too many inbred dogs by professional breeders and otherwise

I agree that the most responsible course of action is to get a rescue dog, and observe the characteristics of the dog, not the breed per se while selecting a suitable addition for your family

I agree that any dog can have health problems. But the law of averages states that a pedigree will have more issues than a mongrel.

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