so I went to see some pups today and it was awful :-(

[AllergicToNutters]

They were living in rank cages outside on concrete floors. The smell was horrid. There was Dad and a Portuguese pointer in a cage, Mum was sooo skinny and looked as if she had been bred and bred. The pups looked healthy enough but the one remaining pup ( so I had no choice in selecting one for us) was shaking and whimpering. He was absolutely beautiful but I didn't take him. I felt awful. The pups were kept in a shed away from the other dogs and Mum. They were clearly not 'indoor' dogs. Very sad and don;t know what I can do.....

At the risk of becoming embroiled in The Doghouse, she only breeds very occasionally, her dogs are healthy, vet checked and are much loved family members. She does extensive checks on potential purchasers, before committing to anything, and would willingly take back any dog she has bred.
She is a very serious person, passionate about her animals, runs her own forum, giving sane sensible advise to would be owners and tells people frankly to get lost if they are not suitable. She is the first to tell would be breeders that there is no money in proper breeding.
It is my personal opinion that she is of the highest integrity with regards to the crossbreed that she is passionate about.
I know other people who are backyard breeders and puppy farms. She is NOT one of those.

Allergic, the first thing to do tomorrow morning is to call your Local authority. Ask to speak to the Licensing department (Not the dog warden) and check to see if the premises you visited are a licensed breeder. If they are, please report in as much detail as possible the problems you saw. Did you manage to take any pictures/write any notes? If they are not, please ask them as a matter of urgency to visit and inspect. Please keep on at them. You have the legal right to see any inspection reports and correspondence under the FOI act - I used this recently for another MNetter who lives near a puppy farmer. In her case, the local authority noted that the dogs had NO bedding but continued to licence, just think about that for the cold nights we have just experienced. And actually that was one of the better ones.

There is absolutely no point in calling the RSPCA about puppy farmers. They have signed a MOU (memorandum of understanding) that they will not investigate puppy farmers which are potentiallly licensed by local councils. Councils have the power to prosecute under Animal Welfare legislation but usually have to be kicked into it.

Which local authority was it? PM me if you don't want to reveal the location.

I would also recommend contacting ronnie over at Puppy Love - she maintains a lot of information about puppy farmers and is one of the prime movers in getting councils to prosecute.

It may also be worth finding out if the breeder is an Accredited breeder - if so please report the poor conditions to the Kennel Club. Interestingly, the Kennel Club have recently submitted their views on puppy farm licensing to the Welsh Govt who are in the process of changing the law on this issue, and have come out strongly in favour of self regulation - no involvement by councils at all.

Please do come back to me if there is anything else I can help with. I have particular contacts/expertise in Wales but have contacts elsewhere.

Flatbread, I think you are conflating 'pedigree' with 'responsible breeder'. Many 'pedigree' dogs come from puppy mills and backyard breeders.

And a responsible breeder breeds what exactly, if not a pedigree or a designer dog? Do they responsibly breed mongrels? I thought not.

The whole focus on going to a breeder for a pup is dangerous. It promotes the desire for a designer or status dog. And delegitimises healthy mongrels.

Flatbred, why do you insist on calling people 'professional breeders'? Good breeders are not professional breeders, they are people who are involved in dogs as their hobby and happen to occasionally breed a litter. They may train dogs or run kennels as a profession, but dog breeding certainly isn't their profession. Dog breeding is the profession of puppy farmers.

How do you know what dogs are inbred? Because 'that' programme told you so? I know many, many breeders and have seen the pedigrees of many, many dogs and I haven't seen any that are inbred in the last three generations and barely any that are inbred to six or seven generations, so inbreeding isn't common at all. Line breeding is more common, but that is not the same as inbreeding at all.

And actually. No. You can't just 'observe the stock at hand' and get a gentle dog by breeding two gentle dogs. Because the parent of one of those dogs may well have been aggressive or had temprement problems and any puppies may inherit that instead of gentleness. If you know the lineage of your 'breeding stock' (which dogs are NOT) then you can be more certain of the temprement of puppies you breed.

Flatbread, have you ever heard the history of the New Forest Pony? They began as many different types of horse and pony, hidden in the forest. Generations of interbreeding, have resulted in one generic type of pony, now a breed in its own right. We have many beautiful, useful, historic breeds of dog, that would be lost if no one continued to breed pedigree dogs. How sad it would be to end up with one generic type of dog, see the Dingo.
I'm not against mongrels, and to a point, I am against pedigree breeding, with regard to people who take the breeds to extremes, for the benefit of fashion and to the detriment of the dog itself, But it would be sad do lose the many diverse sizes and shapes of dog that we see today.

Midori you have the patience of a saint.

Midori, my comment on getting a gentle dog from the stock at hand, was simply about going to the rescue and finding a gentle dog from the ones they have available, or waiting till you find a suitable match, irrespective of breed.

Saggy, that would be good. Thank you.

Midori, we also investigating cocker spaniel puppies. The supposedly low allergen cockapoo coat is an attraction, we are not susceptible, but we have close friends that are.

Flatbread - we have a pure-bred labrador. As a breed, labradors can have problems with their hips and their eyes. There are now specific tests for these, where each hip and each eye gets a score - and the lower the score, the better, as far as breeding is concerned - because a puppy whose parents have low hip and eye scores has a much lower chance of developing either of these problems in later life.

The breeder we went to was Kennel Club registered, and could show us all the documentation for both parents - and I am absolutely sure that we did the right thing in choosing to buy a dog from a reputable breeder, given that we wanted a pure-bred lab.

It is ridiculous to suggest that planned breeding, to breed out the hip and eye problems in labradors is worse than just leaving it to chance. Oh - and dh's had a labrador bitch when he was growing up, and back then it was left to chance (or nature, if you prefer) and every single one of the puppies from that litter, apart from the one that PIL had, developed hip dysplasia, and had to be put down when the pain became too great.

I refuse to believe that it is better to play russian roulette with dogs' health - which is what you are doing if you let nature take its course.

Oh - and even though I have only had dogs for the past few years, I know it's a bad idea to have an entire (unneutered) dog round to play when your bitch is in heat, too.

SDT, why do you have a purebred lab? Why exactly do you need this specific breed? I take it that it is something that appeals to you, not because it is better for the dog to be pure bred.

You do realise that if you did not pure breed labs, you would not have the specific high incidence of lab related genetic issues and worry about these tests.

That is why nature did not intent us to pure breed, but it is something we humans do for our own gratification and then get sanctimonious about it.

London, pm me your phone number or email and I will pass it on.

D0oin, I am only humoured by the fact that after my gobby little rescue dog got lairy with the neighbours small dog earlier it came in and tried to eat the cat food. Said cat (very fluffy, cuddly, blue eyed and beautiful Ragdoll) was FURIOUS and chased my usually pretty scary dog into the hall, then into the kitchen, hissing and trying to scratch his eyes out. I did feel a tiny bit sorry for him, but he lords it over my three bitches and is truly (thought I love him) a PITA at times so I couldn't help but laugh until I was crying and have been laughing to myself ever since. Dog and cat now cuddled up, so I think all is forgiven....

London, cockerpoos may be low shedding, they may not be. That doesn't necessarily equate to low allergan though and any breeder who tells you otherwise is not a good one by any means. Often people are allergic to other things than the coat. Eg. dander.

Cockers are lovely dogs. Poodles are lovely dogs, if not a bit more 'driven' (they were originally working dogs too) than cockers. The latter definitely do not shed hair and when kept in a puppy clip look very attractive dogs. There is a product you can buy called 'Petal Cleanse' that can help with allergies.

Oh, and if you buy a cockerpoo, you may get a dog like a cocker or you may get one like a poodle. If you do go down the cockerpoo route, please make sure the breeder has at least had both parents hip scored and eye tested, these are different to being 'vet checked'. Please also ensure they are not breeding too many litters. One per year is just about acceptable, IMO. Only breeding when they want to keep a puppy is better. Also make sure they will offer lifelong aftersales support.

Flatbread, you aren't seriously trying to suggest that only mongrels are healthy and that there is no such thing as a healthy pedigree dog?

It doesn't make any sense to talk about what nature intended (leaving aside the personification of nature which can't actually intend anything). We aren't talking about wolves or coyotes here, but dogs, that aren't exactly subject to life in the wild unless completely abandoned.

Flatbread

And a responsible breeder breeds what exactly, if not a pedigree or a designer dog? Do they responsibly breed mongrels? I thought not. The whole focus on going to a breeder for a pup is dangerous. It promotes the desire for a designer or status dog. And delegitimises healthy mongrels.

It's not possible to responsibly breed a mongrel though, is it? Or to know that you're breeding a healthy mongrel.

Breeding a mongrel means mating a pair of dogs with unknown parentage, with unknown genetic issues and unknown inherited behaviours and instincts.

Are you really advocating that? A series of haphazard, careless matings to create a country full of generic, dogs? Who could display behaviour patterns inherited from any one of its unknown ancestors? You can't be. It makes no sense.

If all this argument helps you feel better about the puppies you have produced, then good for you. It does not, however, detract from the fact that you have bred them irresponsibly, with no thought, care or plan. Not for the health of your bitch or the puppies. In fact, insisting the back yard, haphazard breeding method is perfect makes it even worse.

It is absolutely impossible to justify an irresponsibly bred litter of mongrels.

Irresponsible breeding us irresponsible breeding. It doesn't matter if the end product is purebreed or mongrel or whether it's done for cosmetic reasons, money or because you are incapable of keeping an in season bitch safe. There is never justification for it.

If the only people breeding dogs were those who breed responsibly; who genetically screen with the aim of eradicating hereditary disease; who take personal responsibility for the pups that they produce for their entire lives then yes, there'd be precious few mongrels and crossbreeds. And there wouldn't be thousands of healthy dogs in shelters being put to sleep every year either.

With over 200 recognised breeds in the UK and many more available that are established breeds across Europe and the rest of the world; there is something out there to suit everyone's circumstances

Flatbread, please explain how you envisage natural selection working in the dog world. Do you just mean to let all dogs run free and be subject to selecting forces that apply to wild populations of animals? Or should humans intervene and manually 'weed out' dogs which are weak by either killing them, or not treating them for basic illnesses.

(hit send too soon)

Part of the reason that dogs have become so disposable is because it's too easy to get one. I could look at Gumtree now and have any one of hundreds of dogs by tonight. And if it turned out I didn't like that one for whatever reason then I could dump it in rescue and try another.

And before you start throwing eugenics arguments around again, Flatbread; have a look at countries where breeding is more controlled like Sweden and ones where it isn't (I'm going to suggest Turkey as I've seen the problem first hand there). Unc

Uncontrolled breeding does not give you genetic diversity. Far from it. Responsible breeding also won't give you as much diversity, granted but it will reduce the number of homeless dogs in rescue that will never find homes because of health or temperament issues. Or simply because there is an oversupply of that type (Staffy and Staffy crosses, anyone?). But while any

But while anyone and everyone is churning out puppies to suit their whim, thousands upon thousands will become casualties. Puppies lie yours that arrive in the wirld through no fault of their own and will die an untimely death through no fault of their own. You find that acceptable, Flatbread? Really? Because, ultimately, that's what you're advocating however you want to dress up the academic argument to suit your personal agenda.

(sorry about all the breaks...my Phone appears to be playing up).

It amuses (and infuriates) me that Flatbread shows such disdain for 'Breeders' when she is one herself.

Personally I am against breeding, except in cases where a breed is dying out. But I believe there are few breeds where this is an issue at present. A dog that is 'unusual' in the UK may be prolific in another country.

However, no matter my feelings, I have a great deal more respect for responsible breeders who do it for the love of the dog, than idiots that let mongrels breed willy nilly, or breed 'designer' cross breeds. Backyard breeders, or irresponsible owners that let their dog 'have just one litter' contribute to the hundreds of dogs killed each year.

A responsible breeder has homes for the pups before they are even conceived. An idiot owner 'lets it happen' and relies on others
to pick up the pieces. Guess which one Flatbread is?

Oh, and if you're going to quote from Jemima Harrison's Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme, can you make sure you are quoting from the re-edited version. She had to change some of the content before it could be shown outside the UK due to inaccuracies and misrepresentation.

And, FWIW, she (Jemima Harrison) admitted on another forum wneh presented with evidence that the CKCS and Boxer who were filmed showing the effects of syringomyelia/epilepsy were the product of backyard breeding while the show implied that that they had been bred by 'show' breeders.

Nazi Dog breeders!?

Flatbread - you make my head hurt.

You need to do some research on what constitutes a Puppy Farm, BYB and a responsible breeder.

We wanted a labrador, because they have lovely natures, Flatbread - and we chose to get a purebred labrador from a reputable breeder, so that we knew that she would have the best chance possible not to get hip dysplasia or eye problems in later life.

Do you think it would be better to breed out the hip dysplasia and eye problems, or allow those genetic conditions to be spread throughout the dog population? Fyi - I think only an idiot would think it is a good idea NOT to breed out a painful, life-limiting condition like hip dysplasia.

LtEve - yy to 'an idiot owner lets it happen and relies on others to pick up the pieces' - except that she didn't just let it happen, she put together an entire dog and a bitch on heat - which is beyond idiocy by a fair stretch, imo.

Oh - and Flatbread - your puppies probably will get good homes through the Dogs Trust - but they will take up 8 kennel spaces at the shelter, which may well mean that other dogs end up going to less reputable or caring shelters, and may end up suffering as a direct result of your actions.

Whilst we were there, taking our dog to meet the dog we adopted, there was an person trying to get Dogs Trust to take two dogs, but the shelter was completely full and had a waiting list, so the best they could do was to direct this person to other shelters that might have space.