so I went to see some pups today and it was awful :-(

[AllergicToNutters]

They were living in rank cages outside on concrete floors. The smell was horrid. There was Dad and a Portuguese pointer in a cage, Mum was sooo skinny and looked as if she had been bred and bred. The pups looked healthy enough but the one remaining pup ( so I had no choice in selecting one for us) was shaking and whimpering. He was absolutely beautiful but I didn't take him. I felt awful. The pups were kept in a shed away from the other dogs and Mum. They were clearly not 'indoor' dogs. Very sad and don;t know what I can do.....

Look, you can argue till the cows come home, but it is a scientific fact that mongrels and more diversely mated dogs have better health. They have fewer genetic health issues and tend to live longer. Some example studies below.

Please show me the studies where pedigree and selective breeding by your so called responsible breeders has improved the canine species over the long run.

^P.D. McGreevy & W.F. Nicholas, Some Practical Solutions to Welfare Problems in Pedigree Dog Breeding, Animal Welfare, 1999, Vol 8, 329-331 "Hybrids have a far lower chance of exhibiting the disorders that are common with the parental breeds. Their genetic health will be substantially higher." (P338)

A. Egenvall, B.N. Bonnett, P. Olson, Å. Hedhammar,Gender, age, breed and distribution of morbidity and mortality in insured dogs in Sweden during 1995 and 1996, The Veterinary Record, 29/4/2000, p. 519-57

B.N. Bonnett, A. Egenvall, P. Olson, Å. Hedhammar, Mortality in Swedish dogs: rates and causes of death in various breeds, The Veterinary Record, 12/7/1997, S. 40 - 44) ?Mongrels were consistently in the low risk category? (S. 41)

H.F. Proschofsky et al, Mortality of purebred and mixed breed dogs in Denmark, Preventive Veterinary Medicine, 2003, 58, 53-74 "Higher average longevity of mixed breed dogs (grouped together). Age at death mixed breeds (Q1 Q2 Q3 mixed breeds 8,11,13, purebreds 6, 10, 12)"

Flatbread - Again, you are totally missing the point. No one is denying that inbreeding pedigree dogs has damaged their genetics to a certain point but the people who have inbred pedigrees over the years are BYB and Puppy farms, NOT responsible breeders who are desperately trying to make their particular breed healthy again after years of inbreeding and breeding unhealthy dogs.

Flatbread, please explain how natural selection can operate in the domesticated dog.

SDT, So buying purebred puppies, even though you are perpetuating dog farming and pure breeding which leads to greater problems for dogs, in the long run, is some how responsible.

Why didn't you go to a shelter? If you only criteria is getting a good natured dog and you are actually concerned for dog welfare, you would get one from a shelter.There are plenty of good natured dogs.

Basically you want a designer dog, you don't care about dogs and their welfare, only your gratification.

Misery, show me the data regarding your so-called responsible breeders. If they are so knowledgable and scientific that they can do better than nature. Surely they must keep records and publish in journals

Otherwise the whole lot of people who designer breed and sell dogs for money are puppy factories, no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.

Flatbread - Your hipocracy is astounding considering you, yourself have played a bigger part than most of us on here in producing unwanted puppies.

On your previous thread I had assumed you were on the defensive because people had been critical of the fact you made the decision on behalf of your (pedigree iirc) bitch to have unwanted puppies.

I commend you for trying to rehome then through the Dogs Trust but you have now become part of the problem.

Breeders who do not breed for money or personal gain and that only breed from healthy examples of their breed to help that particular breed to stay healthy in the future are responsible. As I've said before you have got the lines between BYB, Puppy farmers and Reponsible Breeds mixed up.

I have a Sprocker. He is a cocker/springer cross. They are bred on purpose by some people as working gun dogs. My dog wasn't. He was bred because they could give him a cute name. I got him from what was probably a puppy farmer, although I went to a family home and he was the only pup there. It was only later that I saw an advert for the same dog, from the same 'heartbroken' owner, which was posted 3 weeks after I rehomed her pup. Is he healthier? Is he hell. He has many food allergies, anal gland problems, he's had several infections (ear/anal gland/skin). I adore him, and we will keep him for the rest of his life. But he is castrated, because there is no way I would want to let him breed and pass on his genetics to a litter of puppies. Mongrels are not always healthier, it isn't always best for the dogs, and you have no idea what you might possibly be taking on. BTW, cross breeds can be all sizes, all shapes, all colours. Sprockers seem to be over taking labradoodles as the dog of choice around here, and some are tiny cocker lookalikes, some are as big as a springer, some have long full coats, some have short working coats. Like I said, we adore our dog, he is brilliant. But he was irresponsibly bred, and he is paying the price. And I'm beyond furious with myself that I gave his 'breeders' a single penny.

Flatbread, you haven't answered Feesh's question. How would natural selection work with domestic dogs?

Also why did you chose to take on a pedigree dog and not a shelter dog, if breed is so irrelevent for you?

But, Chickens - He is cuter than a big bag of cute things!

allergic I am sorry that the puppies werent suitable, and do report the byb. It is heart breaking but you did the right thing.

I hope you find a suitable dog for your family, whether via a rescue or breeder.

flatbread I have 2 German Shepherds, both bred by a responsible breeder. 'My' line is used for Police Dogs, Prison Service Dogs, assistance dogs and even god forbid a pet!

While I dont have to explain myself to you, I will a little - our family chose GSD as they are good 'all rounders' we love the breed and chose very carefully what sort of GSD we wanted. We also do obedience and agility.

The KC 'standard' sloping backed, poor hips is not for me, or the police, or prison service or anyone else who loves these dogs.
I will not condone the breeding of 'show dog' GSD until the KC and breeders get a grip, so chose an import that isnt bred to death to get a certain look. I cant ever show my pair at professional 'breed' level but can and have done at breed specific rallies and won, because the people who LOVE the breed of GSD agree that currently the state of the show dogs is disgusting.

Sorry for hijack OP. Good luck with choosing a dog for your family.

Flatbread, do you accept that dogs have historically been bred for a purpose? Mostly as working companions?

That each distinct breed has been developed and refined over time to produce the best possible physical shape and characteristic to fulfil that purpose?

I can't get away from the fact that you don't even have owners for your puppies and you are still attempting to argue that unplanned mongrel mating is better for the dog population than a carefully researched mating by a breeder who is in it to produce good examples of the breed. Not for money, not for status but for the good of the breed they have chosen. That is what defines a responsilbe breeder.

You are having to rely on a charity to find them homes. It will cost them dear to do so; and will take up kennel space which, IMO would be better used by any one of the existing homeless dogs in need. Not for a carelessly created, unwanted, unplanned litter of puppies of unknown breeding.

And when your apparent lack of concern for your bitches health - which all responsible breeders consider BEFORE they plan a mating is added into that, it becomes quite chilling.

Pregnancy and labour is high risk and not something I would put one of my dogs through unless they were a spectacular example of the breed.

I have 4 pedigree labradors, and despite my absolute adoration of every inch of each one of them, only one is a good enough example of the breed to breed from. If she continues to be so, she will be bred from at between 2 and 3 years old and I have already spent hours and hours considering husbands for her.

I will not allow her to go out for a quick shag behind the bike sheds, with a fag and a bottle of vodka, which is pretty much what you've done for yours, and what you're advocating is the way forward for all dog-kind.

I think the bottom line is here that Flatbread can't admit that there is a difference between responsible and irresponsible breeding because if she acknowledges that there's a difference, she had to admit that she's in the irresponsible category.

And yes, Flaybreaf, you are now a breeder even if you are never responsible for the production of another puppy. Same as someone with one child is as much a parent as someone with 2 or more.

I have 4 pedigree labradors

Enough said. You are welcome to your hypocrisy, but please don't call yourself a dog lover.

None of you have actually commented on the studies that show mongrels are genetically superior and healthier than pure breeds. You do understand that anecdotes are not evidence. Show me the data. Until then, enjoy your dogs but remember you are perpetuating all the things your profess to despise - higher probability of health issues, puppy farming and weakening the health of the dog species.

It is ok, in some instances to get a designer dog that is fit for purpose, eg a herding dog for a farmer. For the rest of us, it is nothing to do with dog welfare and everything to do with our own gratification.

Flatbread - You crack me up

Anecu, lol. Getting personal again, eh? I honestly am not making these arguments against designer dogs and breeding for money, because of any vested interest.

You can take me out of the picture and just look at the arguments, not who is making them.

You keep talking about these responsible breeders. What do they breed- designer dogs? Pure breeds? Fashionable crossbreeds of the day? Seek payment for them or give them for free?

I said before, show me the health data for your so called responsible breeders? So no data, just your assurances that you know responsible breeders?

Misery, he really is

Personal? No. Just stating the facts as they have been presented. Seems I have touched a nerve though

Flatbread no one has said that inbreeding pedigree dogs hasn't caused health problems. It has. Every fool knows that. As Midori pointed out, the reputable breeders are trying to fix this by breeding from only health tested dogs and knowing their stuff and knowing it bloody well, too.

What we are saying is that natural selection aka letting your in season bitch have a play date with next doors entire male, without health testing either of them or knowing their lineage like the back of your hand is not the way forward. Mongrels also have hereditary health issues.

Anecu, yes, some of the things have been hurtful, but really it is all part and parcel of participating in an online forum

But I will tell you this, I am a scientist by training and my arguments are truly based on what i feel and the scientific evidence. It is not an attempt to justify my own life. So please take me out of the picture and look at the discussion on it's own merits.

I hate making personal attacks (and I just did that to Daisy above, sorry). The point is to discredit the argument not the person ( although Carl Rove did the latter with great success in G. Bush's election campaign). Otherwise It will just degenerate into a bun fight, with no real value.

Pregnancy and labour is high risk and not something I would put one of my dogs through unless they were a spectacular example of the breed

YY to this. Friends of mine had a particularly lovely Rottie. They decided to 'allow her one litter' (grrr) and I've no doubt that it was a 50/50 lovely puppies/lots of money decision. They did 'everything right' up to a point - let her go through two seasons untouched, then visited some possible studs whilst she was out of season.

Next season decided on her mate, but before they could introduce them a working sheepdog from the farm next door managed to scale the 6ft fence into their garden and did the business.

They decided to allow the pregnacy (another mistake). 7 pups were born in total. The third pup got stuck, vet called out but he couldn't shift it. Emergency CS. 2 pups died. Even sadder - Rottie Mum died a week later of complications from the surgery.

All for the sake of a few bucks, and some cute puppies. Rottie mum was a bloody lovely example of a well bred, well fed, well treated Rott. But she should never have had pups. They were willing to take the risk (probably didn't even cross their minds) and now bitterly regret it.

Flatbread - You keep wittering on about wanting data - maybe you missed the earlier point from AnEcumenicalMatter:

*Oh, and if you're going to quote from Jemima Harrison's Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme, can you make sure you are quoting from the re-edited version. She had to change some of the content before it could be shown outside the UK due to inaccuracies and misrepresentation.

And, FWIW, she (Jemima Harrison) admitted on another forum wneh presented with evidence that the CKCS and Boxer who were filmed showing the effects of syringomyelia/epilepsy were the product of backyard breeding while the show implied that that they had been bred by 'show' breeders*

Hardly data you are providing is it?

I notice you have not commented on my post flatbread

Health tested dogs bred for purpose is always a much better choice than some in season bitch mating with an entire male dog and resulting in a litter of puppies which have no health tests whatsoever. IF you cannot agree with that then you have no argument really.

And a 'designer' dog is questionable, to me that means a labradoodle or a cockerpoo - which in itself is not a breed, its a crossbred animal.

Also, if as suggested in above posts that you have just irresponsibly bred one of your dogs then what on earth are you doing on here shouting about breeding dogs? What are you going to do with your litter? drown them all? Find them good home, FOC of course? Donate them to an assistance dog charity? You cant come and call others hypocrites if you are in essence doing the same thing as a back yard breeder.

Lt., I showed you data - published journal studies that show mongrels on average are healthier and live longer. An imperial college study found the pure breeding has led to many genetical defects. The BBC show has not been discredited, in fact it's findings are largely consistent with data from continental Europe, Australia and other countries.

Show me the data (not anecdotes), large sample studies that verify your claim about so called responsible breeders. Show me large sample studies that show that your responsible breeders produce healthier pups than the average mutt.

That is the whole argument of nature vs. Eugenics. It applies to any living being who is not bred for a specific purpose. We don't do eugenics in people, not because of just abhorrence to controlled reproduction, but because the science behind it is rubbish.

The highground you have taken appears to be made of sand.

Your actions alone absolutely shout that you are not a responsible dog lover. You didn't even manage to keep your bitch safe during her season, let alone take her for a mismate jab once you knew it had happened. Your previous thread was all about asking for help to bail you out of the trouble you've got yourself into.

Your argument proves you won't understand 'good breeding' and 'good breeders', no doubt as a result of puppies you are currently deciding what to do with.

Yes, I have 4 pedigree labradors. They all work. They do just what they have been bred for, and they do it very, very well.

I know my breed and respect and am grateful for all the years of work that have gone into creating these fabulous, kind, intellegent creatures. That's why I have them. Their inherited skills and characteristics are just what I want.

I absolutely don't want a dog with unknown skills, unknown characteristics and an unknown temperament which is what a mongrel amounts to, even when dressed up to be a designer cross breed with a cute name.

There is no hypocrisy here.

Is there a reason why you haven't responded to the question about your own pedigree dog?

london
Wanted to answer you q about what to ask a breeder as you asked me personally

There was a good thread on here started by DogsBestFriend that was being bumped periodically that had some good information and things to think about. I,ve just tried (and failed) to find it and bump it for you, anyone else here who can remember the thread title would be great.

I found a pretty good template for questions by looking on a breed specific forum. I imagine any of the well known cocker or poodle forums will have a sticky somewhere with questions relating to these breeds, with I would hope if they are like my lab forum a good explanation of the health tests and results you should be looking for.

When I try to remember what I asked (this is two years on now) I think I could split my questions into 3 different categories.
Health tests
Puppy & bitch husbandry (so Qs about worming, food, environment the pups were living in, handling, chipping etc)
And a third more general category mmm what to call it, I suppose ethical breeding maybe, questions like why are you breeding from your bitch? how many litters has your bitch had/ do you intend to breed from her anymore? How are you involved within your breed, and the big one for me; if at any point in my dogs life I am unable to continue looking after it can I return her to you? Has this happened in the past? what have you done with those returned dogs?

The good thing is that by asking a load of questions to the breeder you will be ticking a load of boxes at their end too. My breeder said if the first question a potential owner asks is "how much are you selling your puppies for?" she will say "thank you for calling, goodbye".

My list of questions was personal to me and is absolutely by no means a This Is The List. As you may have gathered there is robust and healthy debate about dog breeding, all over the Internet and especially on mn. Reading up loads, asking questions, joining some breed forums (is there such a thing for cockerpoos - no idea sorry) is a good thing imo.

Report, then contact rescue centres if you want a dog.