Anyone watching CH4 tonight, about freebirthing?

[flubdub]

Its on at nine.
Its about women that give birth at home, alone with no midwife, and no medical interventio.

Message withdrawn

I agree that our maternity services are appalling (the way I was spoken to during the birth of DS1 was outrageous and I put in a complaint). However how can you compare that to the risk of death or injury to your baby by going it alone. I am all for free choice and would never stop these women from doing it. However, I personally could never do it in a million years because I could not live with the consequences.

My point about 500,000 women dying in childbirth is not for the numbers per se but to illustrate that it is still potentially dangerous for women and babies. I don't know the numbers but I am guessing if you go back in time in the UK when medical supervision was not as widespread as it is now, you would have higher mortality rates than today.

Though the births were good, Cleo's in particular you still feel they got away with it. Especially the american who had no antenatal care whatsoever. They obviously had disappoining previous births which is sad, but I think their reaction to completely eschew medical advice was foolish. Birth is one day of your life (maybe two) If something goes wrong, you will be living with that decsion for every day of your life.
Rant over
Very impressed by whatever hypno power of the mind thing Cleo had going on.
Hope to emulate her birth in a pool but with a midwife in attendence in November

Actually, mortality rates in the UK rose enormously when birth first moved out of home, into hospital and under the 'care' of the medical establishment - but that's probably another thread altogether!

Totally agree with you toolly.

I just think that we get so wrapped up in the western world with having everything just so that we forget that some people in the world don't have access to even the basic care we take for granted in the UK. Yes it is shite sometimes, but it can also be fantastically good. Jow can you compare 1-2 days of your own life with the life of your child. I just don't get it. This is MY PERSONAL OPINION

Does anyone think it will be re-broadcast? On another channel? Anyone??

Interesting point Snaf. Why was that?

Poor hygiene (doctors performing autopsies and then delivering babies without washing their hands, for example ), overcrowded conditions, lack of infection control, agressive obstetric practices such as use of forceps, fundal presure to get the baby or placenta out quickly... None of this would have happened at home - with a midwife.

'Birth: a history' by Tina Cassidy is a really fascinating read for anyone who's interested in this sort of stuff.

Snaf, didn't Florence Nightingale's hospital have one of the worst mortality rates! Wasn't Mary Seacole more successful in that respect? I know battlefield medicine is different but hospitals at the beginning definitely were place where you died, not got better.

lol roro i think we're being ignored as the tv knowledge bods don't want to admit they don't know

for what it's worth, in britain you have the choice to homebirth. over here in ireland we pretty much don't. it cost a fortune, there are only about 10 MWs nationwide who do it and after september they may not be insured so may be totally impossible to have a homebirth. i've had 2 shitty hospital births and can't imagine having to do that again.

count yourselves lucky that you really do have a choice when it comes to birth, because my choices right now are another horrible hospital birth where i have to scream and fight for every decision and still the MWs ignore me or to go it alone which is terrifying in a whole other way

Snaf - I don't see how this history this has anything to do with it.

The point is to compare mortality rates without medical intervention to mortality rates with MODERN medial intervention.

Could you just spend as much time as you dare at home, then just go in for the final push? I didn't realise the poor choice you had over there.

Digressing on the wrong thread. sorry

PS By medical intervention I mean anything from full on hospital birth with the works to one midwife being present at a homebirth

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Sophie, you asked 'Why was that?' when I mentioned that mortality rates actually rose when birth first came under medical care. I am aware that it's not a modern comparison - I thought I was simply answering the question you were asking!

roro and pink tulips, I can't see how it would be broadcast on another channel - you might be able to pick it up on channel 5 on the internet though.
As it is part of the Extraordinary People series, it is likely to be repeated at some point.

I only watched the first half and then had to stop, partly to attend to DS but also because I ended up thinking they were a bit mad to do it without anyone even on standby. They were sooo lucky.

And I also want to say that my DS birth was pretty good in that all bar one of my MW were lovely.

Sorry Snaf I know I asked you.

My original point was that giving birth without medical presence today has a higher mortality rate than when there is medical presence. You then said that when births first went into hospital mortality rates increased, but I don't know why this is relevant to this point that is all.

I am not usually so dogmatic as this in MN threads but feel strongly about this one. I saw Clair today on this morning - she came across as quite smug - and I just don't know how your own wishes to have no medical presence whatsoever can come before your babies health, when it is obvious that it is more risky, that is all.

tooly, i did last time but they still managed to force me to give birth on my back (by physically turning me over), had me screamed at by paeds for not giving vitimin K, gave me a physiological third stage... but cut the cord after 5 mins and got bored waiting for the placenta to come so tugged on the cord they also refused to discharge me for 14 hours despite me asking for immediate discharge

and that was the good birth

I still don't get it. Would any of you put your kids in the car for a 2 hour journey and not strap them in? Seatbelts are unnatural and sometimes not very comfortable- they restrict movement, maybe they give you the impression you are safer than you actually are. Maybe, statistically you are very very unlikely to have an accident. Maybe you are only going down a quiet road. Maybe there are more accidents now, when we all wear seatbelts, than there were before (so what if it's because there are more cars on the road, it might still be statistically true) Maybe we should trust our own ability to drive better and not be so fearful. To me, that's the same kind of risk in a lot of ways, but if these women were suggesting that they would be seen as barking mad. Just a thought.

Yep - and I did also say that was another thread altogether [nitpick]

I agree that there really can be no argument that it is statistically much more risky to go it alone. From a semi-professional pov, I feel sad/angry/annoyed that some women feel this is their only option. From a personal pov I don't understand why you wouldn't want at the very least an unobtrusive mw in the background 'just in case'. I would hesitate to use the word 'selfish' because I do think there's an interesting argument to be had around the idea (mentioned in the doc) that this is actually taking the ultimate responsibility for yourself and your baby.

We do, as a profession, sometimes give out some very mixed messages to women - you can do it, it's what your body is for, you need to be empowered and make your own choices, you don't need pain relief, it's safe if you just let your body do its thing etc etc, but hey, you need us around and our expertise because actually when all's said and done you might not be able to do it alone after all and it could all go horribly wrong...

Rambling now.

HOw often does it go horribly wrong? Just out of interest?

i watched the program and was fascinated. I have to say that the america woman just came across as being so scared/timid or something not quite right, all the time, i couldn't be sure she was really truly making a very informed decision, and had decided to do the 'freebirthing' simply because she'd had such a terrible time with her 1st hospital birth...

Anyway, having worked in maternity for a few years, a large amount of that time in obstetric theater, I would never even consider doing such a reckless selfish thing... strong words I know. BUT, having seen the most horrific, sad, life changing things happen to women in labour, and/or to the baby during or after, to put either at such risk is just the most alien concept to me, I can't even find the words (evidently!!) to express how I feel about it!

I am referring to women who have had normal pregnancies, brilliant ante-natal care etc... and things still sadly, have gone wrong for them. A woman with a placental abruption, or ruptured uterus during labour loses blood at the most alarming rate, you cannot get it back into her as quickly as it is coming out.

I am all for HB. With good ante-natal care and a MW present as much or as little as necessary in your home at the time of your labour. These are wonderful, beautiful births. The mum and baby is checked as often as is required and any sign of distress to the baby, then of course, they go into hospital. The idea that those checks are not taking place, let alone, that the baby has never been checked ante-natally is just beyond my comprehension. I cannot fathom why any mother would consider putting their baby at risk in this way.

Before anyone has a go at me... I am not of course, referrig to all those thousands of babies, who are 'accidentally' born, at home, with no MW present, or in the car, or, outside maternity etc... of course, those babies are coming fast and no amount of intervention or care is going to stop them!!

I just feel the C5 did not give a very balanced view on this subject. It was pretty much skewed as a positive thing to be doing IMO.

LAstly, to those who missed the program, C5 usually do repeat these programs from this series again. fairly soon, ad definitely will on 'Fiver' if you can get that! failing that maybe online on some sort of 'i-player' or what ever C5 call theirs?

oops, i've ranted a bit too long here... sorry if i've offended anyone.

Just wanted to add, that the first birth was just beautiful, exactly how it should be, a wonderful, natural thing, I hope that if/when I have my next it can be a wonderful as that... ( still doesn't justify the risk/gamble taken of not having AN care... )

As a complementary therapist, lots of people were quite surprised that I wasn't going for a homebirth - but I couldn't and wouldn't take the risk. I had hypnobirthing training (fab), had my MIL (nurse and ex-MW) staying with me, and hated the thought of being in hospital longer than I had to be; BUT I was also on heparin for a clotting disorder and there was NO WAY I was going to take even the slightest risk that something might go even a little bit wrong and me not be in hospital.

When I was a hospital lab scientist in haematology and transfusion, we had occasional horribly wrong scenarios - I couldn't tell you the frequency or percentage - but I vividly remember the one 22yo who bled from midnight to 7am, when they had to give her a hysterectomy to stop her bleeding (they tried everything and she was given so much blood and clotting factors and it would not stop). it was her 2nd baby but still - 22! But if they hadn't done it she would have died from blood loss, and if she had been at home, she would almost certainly have died. Keeps it in perspective from my pov.

thumbwitch, It is a bit unlikely that a free birthing woman would stay home for seven hours without seeking medically help.

For low risk women it is far more risky to be in hospital rather than at home (with a midwife mind)

I found this program very interesting, the first birth made me cry so much. The mother looked so happy and in control, so different then what I know of 'birth'.

I thought it was very risky that some mothers don't have any scans etc or medical checks during pregnancy.

As I'm a 36 1/2 week low risk pregnant woman who still has no midwife care assigned to our planned home birth, it worries me that I may be forced into hospital or freebirthing, neither of which I want to do.

I can understand why these women have chosen not to spend their pregnancy fighting for a choice of care which should be automatic but isn't.

Fingers crossed that we are assigned a midwife before I go into labour.