Abortion - The Choice . Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm

[Milliways]

Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm: Abortion - The Choice.
"Five women face up to their decision to have an abortion, describing their thought processes as they made one of the most difficult choices anybody can make, and on which there can be no hard and fast agreement. Beyond the chatter, 200,000 pregnancies are terminated in the UK each year and none is anything less than tortuous and painful - as demonstrated by this poignant film."

Spero,its a really difficult one,but please think about how your post sounded for those of us with children with special needs.

I know it has upset a lot of posters on the SN board.

I myself was born at 28 weeks 36 years ago.Am very lucky.Was 2lb 4 oz and intubated and incubated for 3 months.Am relatively "normal" I hope.

DD on the other hand was a whopping 9Lb odd term baby.She has developmental delay.

Who quantifies quality of life??

I will tell you a story,in which my erroneous perceptions could have resulted in the ending of somebodies life quite needlessly.I cared for a smashing person with cancer.Every night they would beg the staff to end their life.It was painful to watch.They really had gone through sheer hell.I won't go into it but trust me,I could not have endured what they suffered.One day on a ward round I expressed what the person had said,that they wanted to die.Many of the staff had said the same.Luckily we have a marvellous and wise consultant who ignored us!!Today the person is walking round living a happy life.I still feel the guilt about this.

It taught me a really valuable lesson.I have no say in if someone should live or die.Who is to say,really whether someone has quality of life??

Respect to you Spero for sticking up for yourself. FWIW I don't agree with you, but understand where you are coming from. There are many subjects which have no nice, fluffy, politically correct answers. Doesn't mean those with opinions others find distasteful should be banned. Or that it is acceptable or decent for their words to be taken out of context in new threads apparantly aimed at starting a witch hunt

Back on topic I don't think changing the legislation around abortion is the answer. But breaking the taboo around adoption for unwanted babies might help. And ensuring that if women want to have abortions there is no waiting list more than the couple of days for "cooling off".

thankyou wrinklytum for replying with something other than a vicious insult.

Its a very valuable example you give and one that gives pause for thought.

As I've repeatedly said, i'm sorry to have upset anyone but it seems that what I have written has been completely twisted and taken in ways it was never meant to be taken.

And i take no responsibility for those who chose to respond in such an ott and unhelpful way.

Who quantifies quality of life? Well, first of all it should be the person living it and we should respect his or her decision, if the person can't make a decision then those near and dear to him her. But some people and some children don't have anyone near or dear to them. So do you just go on permitting huge suffering because it is a scary decision? I don't think that can be right.

and I do think that there are some lives which on any standard, just aren't worth living because they are full of pain, immobility and abandonment in some institution

your words.
you wrote them. you bring RL people into this to try and make what you are saying right.
do you have a severly disabled child your self?

It's not simply a scary decision though is it? It's deciding to kill someone. And so many people wont discuss this because they think it is wrong to do that and no discussion needs to be had. Not because they think it's scary.

And who quantifies quality of life? Well, what you propose is shot though with problems.

The person suffering - at the point they choose to die they could be suffering from depression, making their judgement less straightforward. Or they could be facing the unknown and with time would be able to see that someone with their disabilities can lead a happy life. Or they could be mis-informed about their prognosis. Or there could be medical advances which would change their situation in the future. Or they could be being influenced by other people who are putting pressure on them to make the decision to die.

The "nearest and deareast" - you are assuming their relationship with the suffering person would be entirely altruistic and straightforward. They could be wanting to get rid of them for a whole host of reasons. People do desire to kill other people at time which is why there are people in prison for murder. Equally the nearest and dearest could misunderstand the condition and care required or be feeling there's no other way out.

All of these things are why we need to hear the upset/comments from the people who do have sn children and know about what "quality of life" can be available. People with sn children on here have been criticised for being emotionally involved in the debate while at the same time people are saying that decisions should be made on a case-by-case basis by those emotionally involved .

And so the debate that the people in positions of power should have the right to judge when no-one else is available in such matters is perhaps the most worrying of all. Resources have already been mentioned in this debate and how long would it be before providing lifetime care for a child with disabilities would be considered too expensive?

Can you imagine going to see a doctor/being in hospital and you knew the medical professionals had the right to actively kill you/your child if they "thought it was the right thing to do".

I would much rather have a debate about how as a society we care for those who are weakest and most in need and how we as a society can make life worth living for people rather than disposing of them.

Spero on Mon 19-May-08 13:59:55
"I am NOT advocating the murder of disabled chldren. just pointing out that some children endure awful existences in institutional care and we need to think about why this happens and what can be done about it. No one was applying to adopt/foster this child - it couldn't be done, he needed professional care, immense amounts of medication etc, etc.

He was kept alive. For what? For whom? so we wouldn't have to deal with issues that make us feel sick??? Not nearly a good enough reaons I think."

Yes, but surely that point could be made for any child, whether NT or SN, whose needs are not being met? Do we go around putting them all down? Or do we try our damnedest to improve their situation, to find somebody who can and will interact with them. Julia Hollander didn't think it could be done for her daughter- but another woman found she could do it perfectly well. MNers with severely brain damaged children do it.

I am actually for keeping the current 24 week limit, but would like not to see it descend into a polarisation between the fit to live and the not fit.

I am not even sure that abortion is a morally defensible position, but I still think we need it. When people are denied (whether legally or by the attitude of their society) access to abortion, their problems don't go away: given the already high proportion of child abuse and child murder in this country, I think it would be unwise to force every woman to go through with pregnancy. And surely nobody wants to see back-street abortions making a come-back.

And I think that one needs to bear in mind that anyone making a TV programme is going to look for outstanding cases that aren't necessarily representative of what most women's lives are actually like (not to mention the fact that the people who agree to take part in these shows are probably a bit unusual anyway). From what I have seen of what abortion is like in RL, I would never condemn any woman who chose it, though I am thankful that I have never been in a situation where it would have occurred to me.

"I am not even sure that abortion is a morally defensible position, but I still think we need it." well said.

I think abortion should be there as a choice but people should be aware of what they are doing. In my mind people should be able to abort at the full 9 months if they really want to, what's the difference between 24 weeks and 9 months really? Obviously the earlier you do it the better but it still amounts to the same thing if you do it at 8 weeks or 24.

But you should

a. have an understanding of what you are doing
b. Get the help and counselling you need.

I don't advocate showing people images of abortions in an attempt to make them feel guilty or scared but I do think there's no point being blinkered about what exactly you are doing.

the vote on the proposal for reducing the time limit on abortion from 24 wks,is on tonight, as much as I think it is an awful position to be in I think the right to have an abortion that late still needs to remain

the woman/couple choosing abortion can assess quality of life for their unborn child. As they know what sort of love and care they can give a child of specific needs
Hence why some abort babies pre natally diagnosed with Downs Syndrome and some don't.

Is it a black and white issue of right and wrong.
Tis a very harsh judgement to make without having walked in those shoes

Yes 2 shoes, those are my words and I stand by them. And thanks to all the posters who followed you who actually made intelligent comments and engaged in some debate rather than telling me I want to murder children and should be ejected from mumsnet.

I have not ever cared for a severely disabled child. But all my life I have been and will remain seriously disabled; i rely totally on the NHS, its equipment and its professionals to live day to day. And I am utterly sick and tired of the hypocrisy and refusal to engage that surrounds the issue of the disabled and what we do with them/for them.

On the one hand i am told how DARE i even suggest that some lives are not worth living, on the other hand I know of hundreds of cases where disabled people live in misery and poverty because no one gives a damn or any money.

I asked for and got the CVS test for my daughter so that if any abnormality was detected, i could have asked and would have been given an abortion. This happens every day. and yet when I ask what do we do when confronted with a child OR an adult living a miserable painful 'life' a small minority of this community think it is perfectly acceptable, in fact commendable to threaten me and say I 'deserve what ever i get'

Your words I think.

Really?? is that what you really think??

And yes Cory I totally agree we should all be trying our hardest to make everyone's life the best it can be; and that just isn't happening for many disabled people in this country.

I give up.
I can't keep argueing with you. it is not worth my energy.
I still feel your suggestion to end the life of a living disabled child was to suggest murder.
I have a disabled child. i know what it is like first hand. you have admitted you don't. so why do you still argue that you know bes. very odd.
If you had said "black" child or "nt" child people from all over the board would have been reporting the thread. sadly this thread has just proved yet again how little regard people have for disabled children
you say you are disabled. of course as an adult with good communications skill you should have the right to choose whether you live or die. I would never dispute that.
also you talk about "abandoment" as if some how the child/person is to blame for that, once again very odd.
Also you say you have been bullied.
you accuse me of being rude and not taking part in a debate. well your idea of a debate seems to be. see things your way or leave.
hardly a debate.

2shoes, I think the issue here is you telling people they are murderers. just because you have experience of having a disabled child, doesn't mean you have a right to deny other people a choice. It's a personal thing and having 'murderer' screamed at me would not stop me from aborting a severely disabled foetus.

2shoes. Never said I know best. Where did i say that? I know i don't know best. that's why I'm here, that's why I try to think about things and discuss them.

With respect, you haven't tried to argue with me. You've insulted me in a pretty vile way. But to give you credit, you are one of the few on those other threads who actually had the balls to come to me direct, so i respect you for that.

and i do think your daughter is lucky to have you. you will obviously fight for her. I just think you need to save your energies for the battles worth fighting, and not alienate people who might actually not be as bad as you think.

But i don't want to hijack this any further. I have to say i haven't really learned much apart from how really unpleasant some people can be when they feel threatened. but I guess I knew that already!

I am completely shocked at this:

"In my mind people should be able to abort at the full 9 months if they really want to, what's the difference between 24 weeks and 9 months really? "

I don't know what to say...

The thing is, late abortions are very rare. Late abortions for reasons other than medical are rarer still. Do those of you who want women to be forced into continuing pregnancies really believe that your sensitivites justify forcing a woman to carry and deliver a baby that will die within minutes or hours of being born no matter what is done for it? Do you think you have a right to insist a woman continues a pregnancy when she has discovered that the man who impregnated her has been abusing her other children?
As early as possible, as late as necessary. THat's the choice women need.

spero
actually i think you have discovered how people react when they feel their children are threatened.

madamez - i think you are spot on!

i don't i could have a late abortion, (i have had an early one though,many years ago, for 'social reasons', god i hate that expression ) but i believe very firmly that it IS a womans right to choose, i also believe that NO woman would have a late abortion unless she was absolutely desperate!

spero can I just correct you..I am lucky to have her

beaniesteve - when you talk of showing people images of abortion did you mean school children? I totally do not agree with this.

I think kost every woman in this country knows why they are doing and what will happen when they ask for a termination. There is no glossing over it.
they are ending a pregnancy,which in end result denies a child being born. For whatever reasons depending on the woman.

Only individuals know their limits and coping abilities.
I knew mine. I knew I could not raise a child of a rapist. Esp when he was not convicted of it but for assault instead this could mean he would possibly gain access. Unreal. Also the same with adopting I just could not do this to myself, to the child or to my 4 yr old son.
still wasn't easy but it was right.
its not right to need to seek justification for such a decision but it is right to control and monitor access to abortion, it should never be a frequent choice.

I can speak for two sides on the disability issue though... I see both points of view equally.

For the record, doctors did not want to withdraw active treatment for Charlotte. They just wanted her to die peacefully in that event, rather than a traumatic resuscitation.

Spero, just wanted to say that I agree with a lot of your comments. You are getting a bit of a flaming on here, but I think you have a raised a very important issue. And yes, you are right, there is an awful lot of hypocrisy in our society when it comes to the treatment of disabled people

tiredlady. please tell me about the disabled child that you care for.

2shoes, I don't care for a disabled child, but does that mean I am not entitled to an opinion?

As it happens I do have experience of having a very close family member with severe special needs. Does that make my opinions more valid?

I know plenty of people who have ds1 as a 'close family member'

The vast majority of them know bugger all about severe SN.

I don't know what Spero's disability is, but there is a vast difference between physical, learning and communicative disabilities. People without speech are often completely ignored an not valued.

This thread is a fine example of the deeply ingrained prejudices towards those with LD's or severe communication impairments. A life's value shouldn't be judged by productivity.

IN the words of Tsuboi Shigeji

'I may not talk but don't mistake me for as wall'