Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy again mateys! Set sail aboard thread 3 where we still wax lyrical about our favourite show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more 😁(there may also be just a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome)!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back here and join us. But be warned, some of you may find yourself as hooked as we are 🎣.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, two full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead arrives in episode 3, so you need to give it at least 4 episodes as that’s when the tone changes and the main story starts. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611

Well, yes, but but but I wanted them all tangled up in each other, not sitting with a 3 feet gap! They left room for a whole other person to come and plonk themselves down in the middle 😁

🤣🤣🤣🤣 It’s because Zheng’s there. Else they’d be rolling in the dunes 😍

Bah! Still no need for a gap you could drive a double decker bus through. Ed could barely reach Stede to give him that arm pat. He might have dislocated his shoulder 😤 (🤣🤣🤣)

He’s loving him with his words 🤣

Came across this lovely fic last night which frankly has educated me a great deal more about how the Tour de France actually works, than I have learned from DH over the years. Not that I was particularly paying attention before. I liked the Stede in this a lot. He's more together and less angst-ridden than in a lot of fic. As we are apparently not getting our Olympic divers back in full just yet, I'd like to recommend this as a worthy substitute.

archiveofourown.org/works/53253913/chapters/134762869

Oh I remember that one! It was fun! I've followed the tour (and other pro cycling) for many years, so it was really nice to read a related fic. The David Jenkins levels of realism had me shaking my head a bit though 😁 Not the descriptions of the tour itself, which were great, but trying to imagine the characters in their cycling roles.

If anyone wants a giggle, try this one. I didn't realise what I was reading at first - it's totally and utterly OTT and thoroughly entertaining.
Ed has his gay awakening age 22 watching the worst porno of all time, starring a blond cutie named "Steve". It's now years later...
archiveofourown.org/works/52280002/chapters/132248974

Second the ‘Steve’ porno fic especially if you like ‘Work Experience’ and ‘Does the Body Good’. Some laugh out loud lines in there.

Fortunately I also have David Jenkins -esque levels of knowledge of pro cycling (disclaimer: maybe he DOES know about cycling...) so was entirely unbothered by that!

Ha ha that porno fic is very good - cheered my evening up!

I’ve been thinking today about Stede, Ed and Zheng sitting on the beach. I feel quite sorry for Stede - Ed and Zheng are equals, fierce and talented pirates and are clearly vibing on what’s just happened. Stede has to chip in to get recognition and Ed’s “you were incredible babe”, is a tad patronising. The distance between them and Ed’s orientation towards Zheng reinforces that.

I wonder how this plays out in their future - Ed has had a glittering career and craves retirement. Stede was just getting started and has to give it up. In an imaginary S3 I wonder if resentment creeps in.

I’ve had the same thoughts about that scene and tried to ignore them because they make me sad. I think Ed is trying to build Stede’s self esteem here. But you’re right. It’s patronising in the same way that Ed patronises Stede on the treasure hunt in season one. Stede even calls Ed out there. I think the way they are spaced with Stede as an ‘outsider’ is deliberate. Ed and Zheng are clearly excellent pirates. It’s also a scene in which Ed is redeemed in Zheng’s eyes after she previously goads Stede with the term ‘serial killer boyfriend’.

I think we have to believe that Stede will give up piracy and not want to go back. It’s reinforced several times in episodes 7 and 8. When left by the other, Stede achieves in one afternoon what Ed takes, what, 92, 93 crew-hurting raids to achieve? The only reason Stede doesn’t get his head smashed in as well is because of the explosions. Stede clearly does not perform well on the battlefield - we see Zheng having to come to his aid when he couldn’t get his sword out of a victim! And after she compliments him later and he fishes for more, he’s shut down pretty quickly. It all leads to the final innkeeper scene. We have to believe that Stede has got traditional piracy out of his system and will commit to Ed. But it feels rushed and these scenes are hurtful to Stede in order to get to the point. You are spot on, @BillStickersIsInnocent but I have to be in a sort of denial about them as we will likely never get season 3 to sort it out. Season 3 would’ve been very interesting…

@BillStickersIsInnocent And yeah, the porno fic is excellent. I’m not sure I can put my favourite line here. It starts ‘rode hard…’ 🤣

It’s all far too rushed, and one of the many things we missed out on was an exploration of Stede’s motivation for leaving piracy, apart from being with Ed, and his not being a natural pirate in any case. I think if we’d had a series 3 then there would have been some tension and resentment between them around that, for both character and relationship development purposes, and because a whole series of innkeeping might be too much for viewers who don’t love Stede and Ed as much as we do (inexplicable, I know) and want a bit of seafaring. I think he would’ve been tempted back to piracy briefly, but would have been happy to leave it long term. When he left his family the first time, he craved more than anything wanted to be truly seen, as he is rather than as he was pretending to be, and to be loved for who he is, and he has that with his gorgeous Ed who is unpredictable, impulsive, still working himself out emotionally but oh so in love with Stede. He also desperately wanted a feeling of belonging, being truly alive, being part of something where he fitted in and he’s found that with the crew. Those relationships with Ed and his new ‘family’ are the real treasure for him and I think he’d always pick them over a glittering pirate career. He had that momentarily in 2.7 but I think he found both killing Ned Low and the fighting in 2.8 to be not what he really wants as a way of life.

'Babe' in the beach scene – I like to think that Stede is happy to have his pirate skills acknowledged both here and in the later scene with Zheng, but that this isn’t what drives him. He and Ed each recognise that the other has strengths they don’t have – they complement each other and that’s part of the fascination. Stede doesn’t have to be the best pirate in the world as that’s not why Ed loves him, and Ed can defend him if needed. Ed can continue to work on his people skills as an innkeeper because Stede is there with his emotional intelligence and warmth to back him up.

I’m so glad we’ve looked at the post~battle beach scene with Zheng as it has made me feel uneasy for months. After becoming more familiar with the boys through lots of re-watches, discussion and Shearwatet’s beautiful characterisation, I guess we know Ed’s fascination with interesting new things and people easily distracts him but although he has been slightly dismissive, there is no doubt at all of his deep love.

That's such a good point in this context about Ed's attraction to new things - what could be more new and exciting than the pirate queen herself? Despite that, he kisses Stede on the beach and calls him babe in front of Zheng - neither of them have previously expressed affection in those ways in public. So while he's distracted by Zheng and her cool pirate skills, he's still very publicly declaring his love to both Stede and rest of the world. Then in the later scene when Zheng tries to tempt him away, he's very definite about where his heart belongs. If only the boyfriend/Zaddy scene had made it in!

@lizziesaurusx amazing post.

I think due to time constraints, a lot of short scenes are doing some heavy-lifting in terms of story development and characterisation. The post-battle beach scene is doing that.

I do like the fact it’s Stede who comes up with the final plan. During the Road to Moscow, he is clearly positioned as the Captain. Whilst Zheng runs a highly-effective pirate fleet outside of the masculine norms and values of traditional piracy, she is till adjacent to it, and comes a cropper by not reading Ricky Banes’ intentions due to her own hubris. How would Stede have handled the Ricky situation? How would his emotional intelligence have kicked in there? We know Stede isn’t a successful pirate in the traditional sense. His feelings about that are complex and contradictory across both seasons and still need further exploration. But it is his ship and crew that survive at the end. It is his style of piracy, no doubt continued by Frenchie, which has won the day for now.

As for the inn, I don’t feel they can stay there long term. It’s the answer ‘for now’ as a stop gap, but I can see it turning quickly into a resentment nest. Maybe one day Jenkins will reveal his season 3 vision. I keep telling myself he is holding onto it for now ‘just in case’. I’m still not ready to give it up.

One of myriad reasons I love this show is unreliable narratives and memories. Jenkins confirms the use of a different take in 2.2 to convey the first YWFTW was, of course, deliberate.

Chp 18’s live…

I think if we’d had a series 3 then there would have been some tension and resentment between them around that, for both character and relationship development purposes
@lizziesaurusx I'm sure you are right here. They both have work on themselves to do, as well as having to learn how to function as a couple. Stede knows he loves Ed but still has self esteem issues. Does he actually believe he's good enough for Ed and is he really happy to give up his pirating dreams? He has found his new family, but can he be content knowing they are sailing the seas without him? Ed knows he loves Stede but does he believe it when Stede says he has no doubts about giving up piracy to be with him? Does Ed still harbour those thoughts that he's unloveable? Stede's only just had his 'best day' when he was finally recognised and acknowleged as a pirate. Can Ed handle any guilt he might feel at being the reason Stede gave up his dreams? There is a lot of scope here for things that need to be resolved and good communication will be critical - something they haven't been very successful at so far! I'm positive and optimistic for them though. I too think the inn will only be a stop gap. It will give them space to learn about being together and get these things out of the way. And giving up piracy does not necessarily mean giving up the ocean - they'll be back out there, because it's where they both belong.

I do like the fact it’s Stede who comes up with the final plan. During the Road to Moscow, he is clearly positioned as the Captain.
Absolutely @MrsJellybee . This was crucial to Stede's growth. From his first setting out to sea, to meeting Blackbeard and the panicked "I don't know what to do!" in 1.4 - he gradually learned and developed his own way of pirating, and it worked! That Road to Moscow scene was the culmination of his transformation from bumbling 'wannabe' into a true pirate captain. It's not just that he came up with the plan and was the clear leader, but that everyone unquestionably accepted him as such. That they all trusted him and followed him ("make the plan, execute the plan" - now where did we here that before 😁), and as you said, his is the only crew that survived. Stede doing pirating his own way absolutely worked, and his crew believe in it. And if that isn't the perfect excuse to post a couple of my favourite pics, I don't know what is!

Sorry I can't shut up about his transfomation 😂. It's that weight of responsibility on his face in the final shot of the extended scene we didn't get that always hits me. He finally, really knows what it's like to be Blackbeard. I just have to quote the start of that journey:

18-17-16-15- (etc)
"Uh-oh, times almost up. What are you going to do? They're almost on us now. Time for a new idea Stede. The crew's going to die. ("I don't have an idea!") Hurry, you're going to lose all your men. It's all going to be your fault. All the men who trusted you, ("I don't know!!!") their blood's going to be on your hands. It's going to be your fault! ("I don't know!!!!!") Time's up. ("I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!").

His transformation from the panicked cluelessness of 1.4 to the Captain we see in 2.8 is truly magnificent. Stede Bonnet rocks!!!

I should have added. In 2.8, Stede is absolutely feeling those words that Ed spoke in 1.4. He knows they are true - that's the look we can see on his face. He finally understands. It's wonderful.

And everyone needs to hurry up and read it immediately so that it can be fully discussed please

I am DEAD. The gloriousness of that update.
(I do have a sneaking discomfort about Mary, Stede is married however unhappily, I do sort of wish he was sorting that before mermaiding, but MY HEART ❤️ )

I’m at work!! Can you hold off a few hours?

We can! I haven't read yet either, but will do later this afternoon.