Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy again mateys! Set sail aboard thread 3 where we still wax lyrical about our favourite show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more 😁(there may also be just a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome)!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back here and join us. But be warned, some of you may find yourself as hooked as we are 🎣.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, two full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead arrives in episode 3, so you need to give it at least 4 episodes as that’s when the tone changes and the main story starts. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611

Oh he is such a princess! I know it's often said, but it's so true. I hadn't actually realised he did so much reclining 😂He also does other traditional princessy things - he wears flowers in his hair and makes friends with woodland creatures. But I have to commend you, @MrsJellybee . You gave yourself a wonderful excuse there to post picture after picture of the beautiful Ed. I see your ulterior motive!

As for Stede – he is absolutely the archetypal Disney Prince. I mean, look at him! His out fits in S1 are right out of sleeping beauty. And then at the end of S1/start of S2 he morphs into Prince Eric from the little mermaid. I mean, look! You can see the outfit inspiration (yes I can play that game too 😂)

My Ed pics were purely as supporting evidence 😉

Stede is the masculine vertical; Ed, the feminine horizontal.

Yep, Stede is the chivalric hero. I soooo love this show. Because if you’d asked me before I’d seen it who would have the masculine energy and who the female, I would’ve said the other way around. And I think we are given that initially with the angel/devil dichotomy, and BB rescuing the Gentleman Pirate. The subversion of those roles is another reason this show is glorious.

Whose that girl was released by Eve 23 years ago, most of these lot were babies then. Why isn't anyone mentioning that?

The only oldie there is Joey

@RedRobyn2021 Hi, I think you may have intended to post these on another thread? Hello from this thread though 🙋

I was all set to start thinking about how this sits in this chat's OFMD analysis. I might do it anyway!

@CarterBeatsTheDevil me too!

@CarterBeatsTheDevil @BillStickersIsInnocent

I read it three times. For once, I’ve got nothing…

Except I do! 😮

Who’s That Girl? = Who’s this Mary, then?

Get in!

I am VERY impressed 👏👏👏

... said Eve, short for Evelyn, when they first met and became friends, age 23. This is why Evelyn is so keen to help sort Stede out in 1.10 - they've been friends for ages.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

And Joey… because baby Kangaroos… from Australia… which is next to New Zealand! 🤣

And Eve is of course an allusion to the garden of Eden, where a serpent/snake plays a pivotal role in changing the direction of the story, just as it does in bringing our beloved pirates together over snake snacks in 1.7 🐍🐉

Oh, you definitely win the prize 🏆 for that one.

Well that's high praise indeed from one of the women able to produce a tour de force on the parallels between OFMD and TRotAM on the flimsy basis of a question in House of Games! I bet you and @MrsJellybee would both be superb on Just a Minute.

On the snake theme, Ed has to kill the snake in order to have the campfire moment with Stede. Two of his largest tattoos are the snakes on his back and his arm (unless that's a kraken tentacle?) and so snakes are clearly very significant to him, perhaps represent a part of him? So in order to become who he truly is and move from Blackbeard to Ed, and have cosy fireside chats with Stede, he has to kill whatever part of him the snake represents. There's also the fact that the snake falls out of a tree and I think in medieval pictures at least the snake in Eden is often depicted as dangling from a tree.

Plus Ed killing the snake which represents Satan also fits nicely with @MrsJellybee's points about Ed as a Christlike figure. I think there are a few other parallels there not already mentioned. Ed as Jesus betrayed by Izzy as Judas: Izzy/Judas feeling Ed/Jesus is inhabiting his role in all the wrong ways, feeling he's doing the 'right' thing in worrying about Ed/Jesus' public image and reputation and the danger of Ed stopping the Blackbeard persona. Izzy thinks that betraying Ed and Stede will reboot Ed, get him back to being Blackbeard. But in fact it leads to a double martyrdom for Ed, first giving up his 'life'/persona for Stede, then having to give up his newly realised, non-Blackbeard self, die and, eventually, be reborn. Izzy ends up remorseful of encouraging the darkness in Ed, just as Judas ends up remorseful about betraying Jesus (ok not quite the same but both are remorseful/repentant so close enough!).

Ed also has to reject the temptations of the old pirate life represented by Calico Jack/Izzy and choose which version of himself he's going to be - Ed or Blackbeard - this is his version of Jesus's temptations in the wilderness. Ed as Blackbeard being the stuff of legend, perceived as having magic powers - that stuff Pete says in S1 about fire etc - is like Jesus getting a reputation for performing miracles, being larger than life. And to be true to themselves, they both have to reject other people's interpretation of who they should be and turn their back on the myth that's grown up around them, not succumb to pride. They are both mocked in front of others - Ed at the party, Jesus by Herod - both hated and despised - Ed (justifiably) by his crew, Jesus being despised and rejected on the way to the crucifixion. Ed has to reach the depths of despair and feel utterly forsaken and alone and that he is choosing death (that tragic 'finally'), as does Jesus.

Sorry - got a bit carried away, but I'm sure there's loads more I haven't thought of! This really is the show that rewards obsession and thank goodness for that😁

Wow @lizziesaurusx . Thank you for that wonderful post 👏I need to go to bed now, but just a couple of things that are quick and easy...

Two of his largest tattoos are the snakes on his back and his arm (unless that's a kraken tentacle?)
I'm positive it's a snake - theres a 'bts' of Taika where he's in his Ed tatoos. We see the snakes's head on his hand. And you're right about the snake and the tree - it's exactly how I remember it portrayed too.

As for Ed as the Christ figure, you've highlighted so many parallels. As you say, there will likely be more, but that is something for tomorrow now. In the meantime I think this picture sums it up nicely. It's almost a crucifiction pose, highlighting his prominent cross tatoo.

Thank you @lizziesaurusx You’ve really brought together the strands of the Christ-imagery. I never thought much about the Snake moment in 1.7 other than it being an excuse for Taika to go full Taika 😁. But it is an Eden moment. Izzy has been banished in 1.6, but the rearing of the snake that needs to be repeatedly killed is perhaps an interesting foreshadowing and diversion from the original. It’s also quite the Pilot moment when Chauncy has to decide who to sentence for his brother’s murder. He chooses ‘Barabbas’ over ‘Christ’. Then the crew shout their version of ‘Free, Barabbas!’ And it works.

@TriceratopsRocks I always saw shackled Ed as Christ imagery, but it was when my DD pointed at bride Ed on my Crew for Life t shirt and said ‘Is that Jesus?’ I thought… possibly. Nine-year-olds, eh? So wise.

(Thanks for shackled Ed again )

Quickly, the tattoos. Yes, it’s a snake on Ed’s right, uncovered arm. The Kraken tattoo is on his left, usually hidden arm. This is the first time he bares it to the world after confessing to Stede in the previous episode that he is the Kraken.

Thank you @TriceratopsRocks and @MrsJellybee I was sure there was a kraken tattoo somewhere but completely forgot about Ed’s left arm. That BTS photo is gorgeous. The crucifixion photo – I’ve never noticed the large cross right there where we can’t miss it, just at the point when he’s being rejected and martyred (if that can apply when you’ve done such terrible things??) – that’s got to be deliberate, right? And his head is bowed/hanging to his right in the same way as many medieval and renaissance paintings of the crucifixion.

I’ve got to go out but will come back later as I’m sure there’s lots more to find on this theme, whether the writers intended it or not! Trying to work out how to fit in the harrowing of hell or maybe the mystics – who says medieval literature isn’t relevant today?

https://www.medievalists.net/2015/04/the-crucifixion-of-jesus-in-medieval-art/

I was thinking about this today and did a bit of googling. I came across this Tumblr post which links the show to the musical Jesus Christ Superstar. Ed is Jesus, Izzy is Judas, and interestingly, Stede is Mary Magdalene, the prostitute who offers Jesus a different life and changes the way Jesus thinks about himself (and also the way Mary thinks about herself). I particularly like Stede as Mary.

It's worth reading through. Not least because of the video linked at the top of the post. It's a panel with Con, explaining how the first time he met Taika, Taika explained that he saw the Ed/Izzy relationship as being like Jesus/Judas from Jesus Christ Superstar - and promptly played the musical loudly for the next 2 hours.

So well done for spotting all that Christ imagery. It's absolutely intended.

www.tumblr.com/michellethestan/692140779682021376/our-flag-means-jesus-christ-superstar?source=share

@TriceratopsRocks Thank you so much for the link to that genius post! I am beyond excited to hear that Taika is a Jesus Christ Superstar fan and had it in mind for the dynamic between Ed and Izzy – it’s pretty much perfect. The weird thing is that when I was writing my post yesterday I was thinking about Jesus Christ Superstar in the context of the Ed/Izzy emotional dynamic (particularly Izzy feeling Ed is moving away from him after he’s supported him for so long; worrying about the dangers/impact on them all of Ed’s persona changing; wanting to reboot Ed, just like Judas wants to get back to how things were). But then I was wondering how much of what I thought about Judas and his motivation is strictly canonical and how much is from Jesus Christ Superstar. That tumblr post is brilliant on Izzy/Judas.

Last night I wasn’t sure about where the Izzy/Judas/Jesus/Ed parallels leave the relationship between Stede and Ed, and I’m still not sure even after skimming through that brilliant post – I’ll read it properly tomorrow. I don’t quite see Stede as Mary as it feels to me that in the show she’s more of a supporting actor to the two leads and not given quite enough depth to be fully Jesus’ equal in terms of presence or agency. I might be reading the show oddly, but I think the dominant relationship is Judas/Jesus which would make the parallel central relationship Ed/Izzy, so it doesn’t quite work. Mary presenting Jesus with an alternative way of being fits with Stede, and her conflicted feelings about possibly tempting Jesus away from his mission fit with Stede being vulnerable to taunts about ‘ruining’ the greatest pirate. But ‘I Don’t Know How to Love Him’ could be Ed singing to Stede just as much as the other way round – about changing because of loving him, and becoming a different person, but also anticipating being scared if those feelings were to be reciprocated. Both their lives are changed by their relationship. In JCS, we don’t get that from Jesus – it’s more one way - at least in terms of a romantic relationship. Maybe I'm underestimating that too. I love the points the tumblr post makes about Mary/Stede giving Ed fine things - especially the marmalade/myrrh analogy.

Also, Jesus in JCS just isn’t as charismatic as Ed. I don’t think that’s just the casting – I’ve seen it live three times over the years and watched three of the film/staged concert versions and maybe it’s just my perception, but each time it's Judas that fizzes with energy, tension and emotional drama, and his internal conflict is hugely moving. I've no idea whether Taika can sing or not but I would love to see him as Judas!

Another long post, sorry - I hope someone else loves Jesus Christ Superstar and is intrigued by the parallels too.

But ‘I Don’t Know How to Love Him’ could be Ed singing to Stede just as much as the other way round – about changing because of loving him, and becoming a different person, but also anticipating being scared if those feelings were to be reciprocated

yes, yes, yes!! @lizziesaurusx

I listened to Yvonne Elliman’s version three times last night after seeing the posts here and cried my eyes out. Because this is exactly Ed’s internal monologue with regard to his feelings for Stede 1.4-1.8. I listened to it in anticipation of finding Stede’s thoughts with Mary Madeleine in mind, but my brain kept saying ‘This is Ed!’ I’ll try and come back later and annotate the lyrics with my thoughts. Absolutely blown away by the JCS links @TriceratopsRocks @lizziesaurusx My mum was a huge fan when I was growing up, but I haven’t listened to the soundtrack in years. I watched the 1973 film version (the version) again a few years ago, and it’s still unique and utterly thought-provoking as well as moving. Judas is outstanding, and Elliman’s rendition of IDKHTLH is peerless.

I have a raging headache, but will be back later. 🥰

❤️

You two are both brilliant @lizziesaurusx and @MrsJellybee . I haven't seen this in 30 years and don't remember it well at all - now I really must have a watch/listen again. Back then I was involved on the outskirts of an amateur production (I was with the band) so had 5 days of shows, but I haven't actually seen it since. I don't even remember the song I sang!

I'm definitely going to have to look it up and then read that post again. My only contribution until then is to agree that Idkhtlh - the only bit I remember - fits the feelings of both Stede and Ed. Apart from Stede (and also to some extent maybe Ed?) having "had so many men before in oh so many ways", of course 😁

Oh, and I hope your head feels better soon, @MrsJellybee 🤕