Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy again mateys! Set sail aboard thread 3 where we still wax lyrical about our favourite show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more 😁(there may also be just a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome)!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back here and join us. But be warned, some of you may find yourself as hooked as we are 🎣.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, two full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead arrives in episode 3, so you need to give it at least 4 episodes as that’s when the tone changes and the main story starts. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611

You are Rita and I claim my £5!

I mean just look at them.

Imagine playing spin the bottle with these two. Not that I ever have… 🤭

I could look at them all day. Sometimes I almost do 🫠🥰🫣

My days are often structured around when I can next look at them. 🤣😍

Link to article about the game those pics of Rhys are related to:

www.pcgamer.com/games/final-fantasy/final-fantasy-14-dawntrail-gets-its-own-tourism-website-complete-with-activity-recs-recipes-and-small-print-about-dying-horribly/

The spoof site: https://tourtural.finalfantasyxiv.com

I am so over invested who am I anymore 😊

You are certainly not alone.

I have that exact picture as the home screen on my phone so I do indeed look at them many, many times every day, and it makes me feel a bit happy every time. The foot touch photo is my lock screen.

I think it's partly that when he says in the reddit thing that he's never worked a day in his life (or similar) it ties in with other times when he's said that filmmaking doesn't feel like work, that he's so engrossed in it, loves it so much and has so much appetite for it it doesn't feel like a 'real job'. And partly I think it's a desire to come across as winging it, being cool, like being the person at school who always said breezily they'd done no revision then getting an A. Whereas he also says that he spends twice as long as most directors editing his films to get the comedy/pathos balance just right, so in that respect he's a perfectionist.

@BillStickersIsInnocent I thought my crush was ‘just’ series 2 Ed but it seems to have grown. Even the met gala sofa look doesn’t put me off now.

I think you've crossed a line there and are probably beyond help😆

I started off with just S2 Ed as a crush but seem to have moved on to Taika too, and can even see the appeal of S1 Ed now, though the beard still puts me off. But I agree with @MrsJellybee that while Taika is cute in real life, there's something about S2 Ed that is just above and beyond. I watch sometimes with my family and I can't understand how they can't just feel him radiating off the screen. Like you @BillStickersIsInnocent I haven't had a crush like this for about 30 years (Christian Slater in Heathers) and even then that was nothing like this. Maybe because everything then was so much less accessible, whereas now we can be feverishly checking out twitter, tumblr, rewatching endlessly, which has its drawbacks in terms of keeping obsession within sensible levels.

I've mentioned before that I watch Richard Osman's House of Games. Tonight there was a question about the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, the answer being the albatross. As it happens, the next episode on my rewatch was Impossible Birds, which I then also watched. The impossible bird described by Ed to Frenchie in that heartbreaking scene at the end is the albatross. What a cooincidence. It got me thinking.

The Rime features a sailor with "long grey beard and glittering eye" who is an unwanted guest at a wedding (sound familiar?). He is cursed to tell his story of how his ship was driven by a storm "tyrannous and strong" to antarctica where there was ice "as green as emerald" (hmmm). Then an albatross came, conjured a wind and guided the ship to safety. The mariner shoots the albatross, killing the creature that had saved them. In his story, when the other sailors support the killing, the ship is becalmed, there's no food/drink, and he sees only ugliness "the very deep did rot" "slimy things did crawl with legs Upon the slimy sea" "death-fires danced at night". This is depression - where he used to see beauty in the sea, now all he sees is devastation and despair. The crew force the mariner to wear the dead albatross around his neck - both regret and the heavy burden of guilt. Next they meet a ghostly ship with "The Night-mare LIFE-IN-DEATH" and have dreams about the death spirit. "Fear at my heart, as at a cup, My life-blood seemed to sip!" . The stars dim and death takes all the crew down to their deaths, except the mariner who is tormented by the corpses of his crewmates and the rotting sea. His "heart as dry as dust" "the sky and the sea, and the sea and the sky Lay dead like a load on my weary eye" . As well as the depression there's now also loneliness "Alone, alone, all, all alone, Alone on a wide wide sea!". He's been taken to the land of death (the gravy basket). After a week, the mariner starts to pray. Then he starts to see beauty the in the sea around him, the albatross falls from his neck, the dead crewmates rise up and steer the ship back to life. "But ere my living life returned" (seeing beauty brings him back out of the gravy basket). It's not clear if he is hallucinating - in a "trance". As he thinks of happy things the ship sails back to life and to safety. He sees a lighthouse "Oh! dream of joy! is this indeed The light-house top I see?" (we know Stede is a lighthouse). Then the ship finally cracks and sinks into a whirlpool. Oops. But the mariner survives and he is cursed to tell his story to everyone for evermore. It's a story about loneliness and depression but also a 'salvation' story as love brings him back to life and to safety.

I'm going to need help with this, but there's definitely something here. We have the albatross, the impossible bird, the physical description of the mariner, the storm. He's depressed. He's taken to the land of the dead, only returning when he prays and starts to see beauty. One of the first thing he sees when back to safety is a lighthouse. The albatross of depression, loneliness and regret falls away. The message the mariner gives to the wedding guest at the end is "He prayeth well, who loveth well". "He prayeth best, who loveth best" . By loving well/best, his prayers were stong enough to bring him out of the land of the dead and save him. The parallel there is obvious. Especially with the lighthouse being one of the first things he sees.

Can those of you who do proper literary analysis help me out here? Please tell me where I've gone wrong and what I've missed.

But before I go, I just want to quote the lyrics of Francis Bebe's Pygmy Love Song that plays over this scene:

"My heart, my heart is full of love
I have nothing else
My heart, my heart is full of love
And all is for you"

Well, good morning to you too @TriceratopsRocks. I thought I’d had a night-terror and written that myself in my sleep. 🤣 Being that I hate this poem, and refused to teach Lyrical Ballads (my Romantic poetry interest begins and ends with Keats really), I will try and add a couple of ideas. One of my colleagues was an absolute legend in understanding TRotAM. I did sit in on a couple of his classes and he almost made me like the damn poem. Almost.

So the killing of the Albatross is a breach of nature. The poem was written at the same time as Frankenstein so there are similar ideas. The Albatross is Christ (Ed, possibly).The Mariner, Judas (Stede). The crossbow, is well, the Cross. Stede has ‘killed’ Ed, but his rejection of him goes against nature because he is the one he is ‘to be mated with’. It’s a breach which causes Ed’s suicide spiral.

But, I also think Ed is the Mariner because of all of the ideas you’ve analysed so well above. The idea of the crew suffering because of the actions of the Captain is significant. Our actions have consequences and the Mariner’s crime impacts on those around him. So if the Mariner is Ed, then what is the albatross? Hope? Is the letting go of the red silk, Ed’s albatross moment and the killing of hope? Not sure.

I was thinking of something the other day with regard to Chauncy’s words to Stede. He calls him a ‘monster’ and we think of that word to mean grotesque or monstrous. But the word used to have a much more neutral meaning, I think. A sea-monster was a sea-creature, possibly harmful, but not necessarily. It was maybe other-worldly, a Cryptid, a breach of nature…? When the Mariner kills the albatross, he is cursed. The things he used to find beautiful, such as sea creatures, he now finds grotesque.
‘the very deep did rot" "slimy things did crawl with legs Upon the slimy sea". I think this could be interpreted as Ed’s hatred of the ocean life (he was heading that way anyway), but also his new view of Stede. Stede is now Chauncy’s monster in Ed’s mind - ‘F*ck you, Stede Bonnet’. Of course, Ed too is a sea-monster, the Kraken, and the veil of depression and hatred with the killing of hope, is directed towards himself too.

When the curse is lifted though, the Mariner appreciates the beauty of the sea-creatures once more. “A spring of love gush'd from my heart, And I bless'd them unaware.’ Merstede is Ed’s beautiful sea-monster. There is a ‘spring of love’ from Ed as he sees the vision approach - I mean, that face! - and I guess he does ‘bless [Stede ]unawares’ as the real Stede has no idea that the curse of Ed’s ‘hatred’ (he never hates him really as we know) is being lifted and he will be able to view Stede again without the veil of depression.

I’ll post this now so I don’t lose it, but seems I haven’t finished. I’ll be back later.

Thank you @MrsJellybee !! My apologies for inflicting this upon you first thing in the morning 🫣 😁.

The idea of the crew suffering because of the actions of the Captain is significant.

Oh blimey yes, I can't believe I missed this one. I also like your idea of the curse being triggered by the killing of hope and letting go of the red silk. But that scene is also where Ed kills Lucius. Could that be the more literal interpretation? Lucius is 'light'; in the poem the albatross is Christ, famously the light of the world. So it's Ed killing Lucius/light/Christ that triggers the curse? And I love your description of the Merstede moment, the blessing and the spring of love. It was getting rather late last night!

I have to run now too. I think I will also be back!

So let’s keep going with the idea that Ed is the Mariner who breached nature by killing the albatross.

What breach of nature did Ed commit? He killed his father. This doesn’t quite fit because the albatross was in fact no threat, but a helpful guide, whereas Ed’s father was a violent bully. But whichever way you look at it, patricide is viewed as a breach of nature in all great literature. Shakespeare and the Greeks had a lot to say about it. Don’t sleep with your mother; don’t kill your father. It’s how not to be happy 101.

Even before Ed meets Stede, he is on a downward spiral. His life haunted by that defining act. Like the Mariner, forever telling his Rime, Ed seems to sail the earth telling the story of the day ‘The Kraken’ killed his father. I refuse to believe this is the only time he has told the story. He tells the crew a version of the story days after meeting. It haunts him. Only Stede gets the real version.

In the trip to the Gravy Basket, Ed is reminded of the crime that haunts him. Hornigold tells him he has Daddy issues and that he told one person about the killing of his father, and he left him. The core of Ed’s self-hatred is not that Stede left him, it’s that he left him because of the breach of nature which makes him unloveable (so he thinks). There doesn’t seem to be any way to atone for this sin and Ed chooses to die. The rock tied to Ed’s waist is the albatross, the guilt of the breach, and it will pull him to his death.

But then Ed hears Stede’s voice under the water, the rope falls away like the albatross in the poem, and Ed realises he can be loved and forgiven. He sees beauty again in Merstede where he thought there was only reflected ugliness (his own ugliness), he is saved, he is loved, he is forgiven 🥲

Lucius is 'light'; in the poem the albatross is Christ, famously the light of the world. So it's Ed killing Lucius/light/Christ that triggers the curse? Sorry, we cross-posted. Oh, yes, possibly. There are so many interpretations possible. I don’t think killing Lucius is a breach of nature though. It’s the patricide what done it! Ed’s been cursed along time.

I actually think Ed is a Christ-figure because I don’t think he’s done anything wrong. He thinks killing his father makes him unloveable, but I don’t think we do. It’s the old ‘sins of the fathers will be visited upon the son’. Ed goes down to Purgatory , ‘guiltless’, and that’s partly why he is able to be resurrected. The imagery of his clothing in 2.5 is proper Jesus stuff. The hemp-sack, note the focus on his sandals when he’s mending the door… mending the door! i.e. carpentry. And then he goes fishing! I mean, c’mon. 🤣 Kitty-bell aside, this is the son of Galilee.

Oh that's wonderful, @MrsJellybee 👏. I do like the parallel of Ed telling his 'kraken killed my father' story to the mariner's constant retelling of his tale. And of course the rock is the albatross. But the patricide and Ed as Jesus? 🙇‍♀️ (that's a bow btw!).

Thank you, thank you!

And we need a picture of the beautiful sea monster and spring of love.

Oh, adding to the 'Ed as Jesus' imagery, of course he's a carpenter too. That good old door latch... (sadly I don't have an image to hand).

@TriceratopsRocks I think when Ed’s mending the door-latch and says ‘It’s not your fault you’re broken. You didn’t do anything wrong’. I mean, the writing team had given up on subtlety by this point… 🤣

Oh absolutely. And I missed that you had already mentioned carpentry - rushing too much. At least I have time for another Ed pic now. And fisherman Ed too 😁

Gosh I had completely missed that interpretation, good work clever women of Mumsnet!

I wasn’t going to mention it as I don’t feel really feel qualified, but there is a queer theory reading of TRotAM. The Bridegroom represents heteronormative masculinity. The wedding guest is a young man heading towards the wedding party to partake in this version of masculinity when he is waylaid by a spectre self in the form of Mariner. The Mariner is a ‘masculine heroine’ offering a different version of manhood.

The Mariner suffers in a way that heroines usually suffer in literature, and it got me thinking about Ed. His journey is very much a feminised story. Wronged and jilted by the man he loves; suffering and dying of a broken-heart. The attacking of the wedding party and taking of the toppers with himself as the bride. I don’t like some of the gender woo in the fan fic, but Ed does have traditional feminine energy. He lies prostrate in death like Sleeping Beauty or Snow White, and is brought back to life by the love of his Disney Prince. And it just got me thinking how many times does Ed lie down in this show? He’s barely upright. It’s a feminine aesthetic all this reclining. He’s supposed to be Blackbeard ffs! But of course, he’s soft Ed when he’s ‘well’. I couldn’t find any Kraken-reclining which I think is significant as well.

So, I’m tentatively confirming Ed as a ‘masculine heroine’ like the Mariner.

More Ed lying down…

Up, girl-scout! Up, up, up!

He does in fact lie down during the Kraken spiral, but only in private, I think. 💔