Raye Racist

[AnonymousUser6]

Having never heard of Raye before her BAFTA success last night I decided to listen to some of her music. Was somewhat enjoying it until her lyrics “All the white men CEOs, fuck your privilege
Get your pink chubby hands off my mouth, fuck you think this is?”
I personally feel these are racist lyrics and they are unacceptable.

And has been pointed out that this only works if you ignore the other definitions of racism.

This is a great article on this topic. It is not at all surprising that certain minorities are drawn to the Conservative party. A lot of communities have values that align better with them and I genuinely do think that if it were not for the blatant racism they may not have as much support from white people but they would have much greater support amongst poc. However, the minorities in power server purpose, they can be used to drive the more racist policies and are usually from monied backgrounds, because yes class money, and a willingness to pretend it does not exist, can insulate you somewhat from racism. There is definitely intersectionality to disadvantage.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/15/tories-different-origins-skin-tones-need-diversity-sunak-austerity-badenoch

@MCOut

aren't we conflating racism with classism? Could it be what some construe as racism is also as much as people looking down at the disadvantaged generally (which is also wrong)?

i I do not believe we are inherently a racist country although racism exists in many forms as it does in all societies. I think to tackle racism generally we need to accept that all races are treated equally and we avoid any slur or discrimination that refers to race.

I think this where I object to Rayes lyrics, yes the men were d @#ks but there was no need to bring ethnicity into it as you are spreading a trope that white men are priveleged and take advantage of women of colour which certainly isn't universally true. An equivalent would be attributed Jews to being overly interested in money which is an outrageous slur and all decent people would avoid it. Misogyny certainly isn't monopolized by white men so why being race into it?

@mids2019 I would argue that Jewish people are treated uniquely in that whether or not they are considered as a race is fairly inconstant and I don’t really think that there is consensus amongst white people (who I feel largely define the boundaries of other groups). Between people who agree that they are race, where do the boundaries of that race lie, all Jewish people or specific ethnic groups like Ashkenazi? Are they white or no?

Yes, definitely, it does need to be taken seriously but I don’t think it’s semantics. There is a very short term benefit to characterising antisemitism as racism as the word racism gets attention in the way antisemitism does not.

The problem is that three fold. Firstly, they are different in nature and the same actions will not work for both. it is important in it’s own right and we should be making space for both separately.

Secondly, it invites comparisons between groups which are ultimately are not helpful in solving problems.

Then lastly and probably most contentiously I feel it’s damaging for poc. The reality is because most Jewish people in the UK are white, what will redress inequality for people of colour may directly conflict with their interests. When this happens as the white party their interests will be prioritised and this conflict of interest will be treated as racism when it’s not.

@MCOut

I think it is a little academic to argue the differences between anti semitism and racism as the end results of the discrimination are similar and in the case of Jews quite disastrous.

Nazi Germany was not very discriminating about the individual heritage of Jews really so I think we can safely group Jews as a community that were subject to hatred of a massive scale and to some extent it is a moot point whether race was a factor.

I also think that the broad envelope of 'white people' doesn't serve the debate well as we have seen and will continue to see huge discrimination between different groups (or races?) of white people. In fact as a white person I have a race presumably but how do I define it, is my race a product of my heritage or genetics?

I think to define racism we have to define race and that actually is quite an academic argument and I think people are taking the quite simplistic view that ethnicity and specifically skin colour are a means to define race. If we work from this definition racism would presumably be based around discrimination or abuse based on the colour of skin and so on fact white skin would fall under any social protections for racism. A lot of the terminology people view as racist fall under slurs about skin colour (hence the argument Raye is racist).

I think there are arguments about ensuring people of all ethnicities enjoy the same opportunities regardless of race and I support these but I do take issue with the fact that any structural differences in society are due to purely racism as that in itself assumes white people by their nature are discriminatory which I don't think is the case for a large majority.

I suppose a broader question is whether racism is a greater problem than any other form of discrimination and I actually think discrimination of all forms needs the same focus.

One thing I am sure of us that simplistic slurs or tropes about white people aren't really constructive.

@mids2019 I don’t think it’s confusing classism with racism. For example, if we look at music, RnB is derided in a way that country, punk and indie music aren’t even though it’s incredibly popular. I feel like some of the more independent and rock stars actually go out of their way to pretend to be more working class than they are.

We have to agree to disagree. Racism has underpinned the development of Britain which is why these ideas persist in the population and continue to drive inequalities today whether intentional or not.

I understand your point, but where you see a troupe, I see a call to be thoughtful. I’m sure those men in leadership were just making decisions that they thought made commercial sense without considering the ramifications of those decisions both on her but also culture at large. It’s this kind of thoughtlessness that is a problem and her calling it out is not creating a trope that will cause harm because we are in a majority white country. Race was a factor in the same way that gender was a factor so why should one be mentioned and the other not?

I think to tackle racism generally we need to accept that all races are treated equally and we avoid any slur or discrimination that refers to race.

The issue with this is that it cushions a palatable lie. Anti-white racism is not an equal problem in society and it never will be. To solve the problem of racial inequalities, yes, everyone needs to do the work, but white people doing the work will have much more of an impact.

@MCOut

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)#:~:text=The%20definitions%20of%20both%20terms,Asian%2C%20and%20mixed%20groups).I

The definition of race and racism is suitably vague and from the above we can use pretty much any social or physical descriptor to separate races. Race is a social construct.

If we take Jews as being a race we can see at least in the previous century 'white racism against whites' was pretty big issue.

It's an interesting debate about what forms of oppression formed the modern UK. My daughter is learning about the industrial revolution and there was a massive exploitation of poor working class people including children at that time in cotton mills and mines. Also at around the same time we had slavery in the US. Which was worse being forced to work in a plantation or effectively being forced to work in mind or cotton mill with unguarded machinery? I think there is a similarity and it could be argued that modern Britian was built on the backs of oppressed people of all ethnicities.

I don't think these are simplistic arguments and I have sympathy for Raye's experience but I still do feel skin colour should not be brought into it especially in a deliberate way when writing a lyric.

@mids2019

The plantation. I say this with no hesitation.

It’s not that white people are inherently discriminatory, it’s about socialisation. It is pure arrogance to believe that you can be brought up in post Empire Britain without assuming some racist ideas. I don’t think people of colour are exempt from this.

For example the idea that being working class in Britain was in anyway comparable to chattel slavery is white supremacist nonsense that has endured. This narrative was purposefully crafted by radicals who felt that the focus on abolition was wrong when there were white people who were suffering and were superior to the animalistic Blacks. Abolition was central to arguments about reform and so this idea has persisted. We really do sanitise teaching about slavery, so most people do not realise how integral fear and extreme violence were to the system. Without it, it wouldn’t have worked. The average enslaved person only lasted seven years during plantation work and suicide was commonly chosen as a form of resistance.

Have a read up on seasoning and the role of violence.

https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10871/40461/Hanley%20-%20WCR%20-%20Final.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Thistlewood

Modern Britian was built on the backs of oppressed people of all ethnicities.

Okay fine, but this does not mean that racism has not paid and integral role in the development of this nation or that the ideas used to justify this do not endure.

@MCOut I admire you continuing to stay calm in the face of such utter ignorance. “We’re not an inherently racist country”, good grief.

And as for the comparison of factory workers and actual slaves, that’s so incredibly offensive it doesn’t even deserve a response.

I remember the first time I heard this, I got so angry but my friend then told me this is something that he was actually taught in school.

Jesus Christ. The “not inherently racist” country strikes again.

It's clearly hard for you to understand that quote in context.
Not one person in that crowd thought "Oh yeah he means reverse racism too".

@mids2019

Which was worse being forced to work in a plantation or effectively being forced to work in mind or cotton mill with unguarded machinery? I think there is a similarity

Yes, there's such a lot of similarity between going home to your family every night and being violently raped by your owners with impunity.

@mids2019

I’m still thinking about this. It’s come up in a few threads so for anyone who is interested, this is the account of Henry Whitely a proponent of working class reform who believed the same thing until he went to Jamaica in 1832. He had his life threatened and was booted off the island for being a Methodist and having a conscience. It’s only a few pages long, but describes what he saw.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=13iAmgEACAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

”But as I have mentioned, I left England with a persuasion that the general condition of the West India slaves was, on the whole much preferable to that of the children in our factories, it is proper to state the conviction with which I have returned - which is this. The condition of the factory children is certainly very deplorable, and calls loudly for amelioration… but between the cases of the factory, child and the plantation slave, there can be no just comparison. The former is very bad: the latter is INFINITELY worse.”

Probably because the term had not been made up yet,

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're being pedantic for shitz and giggles. Because if you seriously don't understand the point you're best staying in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Are you honestly trying to imply that MLK meant you can’t criticise black peoples oppressors?

As I have said through out the thread there is no such thing as "reverse racism" there is just racism.

If you just believe that power + prejudice = the only form of racism then that is on you.
But for the rest of us that know that every person can be racist (as well as systemic racism) understand that when you are prejudiced against a white person, that makes that person a racist

Call it what you like, but it is not the same thing. It does not carry the same weight or power and to argue otherwise is facile.

I think most people would be of the view that refusing to accept that white people can be the victims of racism is facile.

Good grief.

Okay. Let’s be as clear as possible. We will get away from semantics and agree that if you want to use the word “racism” as a catch-all which covers both systemic racism and racial prejudice (dangerous, but trying to get you to recognise that is apparently pointless) then yes, white people can be the victims of racism – BUT in the West, where white people hold the power, it is not the same thing, nor at the same level of seriousness, as the endemic, systemic and constant racism faced by BAME people. To suggest otherwise is ignorant at best, downright offensive at worse.

I’m also curious as to why it’s so important to you to be able to say that white people can be victims of racism? Why do you feel you need to be able
to claim that word?

The girls in Rochdale, that’s why.

Proud of yourself for using that as a gotcha, are you? From Sarah Vine to Tommy Robinson, you’re in good company.

Some reading: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/may/09/rochdale-grooming-trial-race

That article is from 2012. Fortunately attitudes to the horrendous abuse that took place have moved on since then.

You can dismiss being sickened by what happened to those girls and specifically how they were treated by the authorities as somehow a “Tommy Robinson” view but fortunately decent people are outraged by it.