Good Omens 2 - all episodes watched so spoilers aplenty to discuss

[TyneTeas]

Oh :{

I've read some comments on FB where people talk about the 'passionate' kiss between Crowley and Aziraphale 🧐. It's like they saw something completely different to what I saw.

What?! Really?! That's very odd. I read it completely differently. It looked so forced and uncomfortable, there was nothing passionate about it at all. To me, it looked like Aziraphale didn't want to be kissed and that he was really shocked and upset about it.

Oh dear, that Kiss... As Gaiman has a great interest in mythology, and one expects with GO more than a passing interest in biblical theology, I did wonder if it was supposed to be Christian "a kiss of Peace" or a "friendship kiss" as given between friends, but done with such desperation by Crowley at the thought of losing Aziraphale that it did not bode well and was very misjudged...
It most certainly was passionate, but not a snog, no tongues; no sweatiness or damp lips that evince a lover's kiss (film and tv does seem to miss that bit out a lot though!).

I could entertain (?) you with the history of the kiss of peace which actually predates the Christian era by millennia in the area of Judea and the early Mediterranean peoples and would have been likely to have been used between angels as a greeting. And how this evolved into the French "trois bises", or the Fraternal kiss in socialist states between leaders, or even prince William kissing King Charles on the cheek as a sign of respect to his liege lord. I shall also not mention the medieval Christian manuscripts with much evidence of having been kissed as a sign of Christian love and piety... Ahem

However I think this was poorly done in episode six and much mistaken by many people as a sexual kiss when there has never been any intimation of sexual desire between Aziraphale and Crowley. it did come across as more rape than friendship when I really don't think it was meant to be sexual, but Crowley's despair at the thought of losing his lifelong (and that is a veeeeery long life) friend.

Oh yes, you're right, @LilyRed, I should have said not passionate in a romantic sense. I agree with your interpretation, there was definitely a lot of emotion there. The kiss of peace stuff is really interesting, I wonder if that was the intention but somehow it got lost in translation?

@blancveir I agree, I think it did very much get lost in translation and is not possibly a concept well understood by some of the younger watchers.

I'm only halfway through and I'm not loving it. Storyline aside I really don't like the camerawork with all its odd zooming around above head height, and the plasticky ultra-HD look of it. It feels like it was made on the cheap, filmed on an iPhone rather than a proper camera. I also find it quite 'distancing', nothing feels real - it's a sterile fake world, so the characters unfortunately also end up feeling sterile and fake to me.

It's the Good Omens equivalent of a Cadbury's chocolate bar as made by Hershey's - not the same, not as good, and spoils the previous memories. Gutted.

The majority of filming this time round was done at the Pyramids Studio in Bathgate (just outside Edinburgh for those unfamiliar) with an awful lot of greenscreen being used for CGI effects which might have added to your sense of unreality @WeegieWan ? The street scenes always felt unreal to me and they were all done in studio. Some filming did take place in and around Edinburgh, but not half so much as in the studio.

@LilyRed That's an interesting interpretation, and makes sense. I was rather disappointed by the idea that even celestial beings can't maintain true friendship without selfish desires getting in the way. I suppose I like to see angels and demons behaving in non human and impersonal ways because it's the fact that they are unpredictable and not like people that fascinates me. I understand they have spent a long time with humans and become more like them, but if they end up just like humans, only with superpowers, I find that a bit boring. I hope there will be some explanation soon about what the kiss meant!

I didn't read it as passion, so much as desperation.

The only thing I can think of is that if the kiss was a way for Crowley to transfer something, information or part of his soul or something, to Aziraphale that couldnt be detected by either side. C wanted to tell him something but couldnt verbalise it for whatever reason, and then there was the desperate kiss. So then A went Upstairs with this information and thats why he was smiling.

Hoping against hope that at least the storyline can be redeemed by S3 even if the writing probably wont be.

I'm so obsessed with this.

My current thinking is:
Desperate kiss from Crowley, trying to get Aziraphale not to go to heaven.
Not a successful kiss; I don't think it's what either C or A want really.
A said he forgave C, because he knows he did it to try to get him not to go.
A looked miserable as he's leaving C.
A smiled beatifically because he was off to heaven to be the flipping head of the angels.

Not really commenting on this series as such, but to the people saying Crowley/Aziraphale as a romantic couple "wasn't there" in the original books, I just want to say that I spoke to Terry Pratchett when he came to the Oxford Union in 2005 and asked him what he thought about people writing fanfic about them, and he said he didn't mind at all and that they were obviously implied to be a romantic couple in the book, so people were just elaborating on what was there.

But they weren't implied to be a romantic couple in the book, were they? I think some people just wanted them to be, as they couldn't conceive of a close relationship that wasn't romantic / sexual.

All I'm saying is that Terry Pratchett told me they were implied to be, to his mind, obviously a romantic couple in the book.

@PyongyangKipperbang That is an interesting idea; I wonder what it could be? The Bentley starting handle as used by Crowley to start the universe in S2, but miniaturised until it is needed again as an Armageddon seems inevitable yet again in S3 perhaps?

@girljulian did TP clarify whether it was also a sexual as well as romantic love? I have always felt from the book that Aziraphale and Crowley's love is more like the philosophical concept of Philia (love of close friends) than that of Eros (sexual love), with much affection and closeness, but asexual.

I was thinking that.

Romantic love is not the same as sexual love.

They are clearly partners and love each other, but I dont buy the sexual thing. Angels are, according to myth and accepted religious belief, asexual.

Mmm, but according to the book angels are sexless unless they make the effort. So there is that undercurrent of potential there. And in the bible there are also the Nephilim - from the ‘sons of God’ mating with the ‘daughters of Earth'. Obviously interpretation of sons of God is open to ambiguity. Fallen angels seems to be the popular interpretation. Actual angels is another interpretation, given that sons of God is implied elsewhere in the bible to be angels. So maybe possible…

Besides which, it is Gaiman and Pratchett's creation - if Pratchett endorsed that interpretation and Gaiman now sees it that way, it's their story! Although, having said that, I suspect that that particular scene is not all it seems. There are so many loose ends in season two, the whole thing feels like a set up, and some of the things that feel as if they got dropped for no reason or just plain clumsy, just could be that way for a reason. In that scene's case the timing feels off, and the clock (continuity error maybe…), I swear there is something else going on and it'll be revealed in Season three. Also Maggie is a demon (I'm probably wrong on that one…) I really want season threee…

Although, I actually did like the hints of Crowley/Aziraphale when I read the book decades ago… So I would be happy with a romantic relationship between them. And after all Aziraphale does like the food and drink related pleasures of the world so much. I do have some sympathy with people preferring their relationship to be asexual. I can remember being furious when new Who made the Doctor fall in love with a human, which I thought was ridiculous! But for me, I do want to see Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship on screen and I do want to think they end up in love, whatever form that takes. So I hope we get season three.

Just got as far as episode 3 so far. Really loved Muriel and their attempts to be a totally normal human.

Not so keen on the flashback stuff, which seems to negate the charaxter development that took place in season 1

I didn't push him on that point but I don't think it matters really, does it? Asexual people who are romantically in love still kiss.

I haven’t seen all of it yet as on holiday with iffy wifi, but what I’ve seen so far is absolutely brilliant, so funny. I did have a look at the final 15 min of ep. 6 to see what all the fuss was about. I think there is some ambiguity in the final scene and the kiss, and that this is on purpose. I do think the entire scene is brilliantly scripted and acted, especially the final split screen. The only problem is having to wait for another series to see the resolution. But even without that, the ending makes it more interesting, with things not as black/white as they first appeared (in keeping with the book and the first series).

It wasn’t a great kiss.
For me they do love each other but Angels are asexual so it kind of makes sense.
It made me feel a bit sad that Crowley was finally admitting his feelings and was basically rejected

Such a shame loved the first season the second had some good bits but it's become far too woke now like it was ticking off every box possible to please the woke few such a shame that society has come to this that we merely can't enjoy anything without it being thrown in.

I too viewed them both as really good friends like a sibling love for one another not a romantic love.

https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/terry-pratchett-would-have-been-100-open-to-diversity-in-good-omens/

Finally watched it today, having sorted network issues.

There was plenty of good stuff in it. I loved all the Pratchett and Finnemore references.

I haven't read the Crow Road. Now wondering if I should.

I can't quite decide how I feel about the ending.