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Good Omens 2 - all episodes watched so spoilers aplenty to discuss

157 replies

TyneTeas · 29/07/2023 01:21

Oh :{

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LuckOfTheDrawer · 31/07/2023 11:50

I'm still over-invested and gutted about the kiss 😄. I've been thinking about it though - it wasn't a good kiss, and maybe that's because it wasn't supposed to be? Was it maybe a last ditch attempt by Crowley, but neither of them felt it romantically at all? Aziraphale said he forgave Crowley afterwards, but what did he mean? For kissing him against his wishes? For not taking his offer of joining him in heaven? So many questions.

Calyx72 · 31/07/2023 11:54

Agree about Gaiman selling out and also being a walking ego. I never believed Pratchett wanted a second book.

Knackerelli · 31/07/2023 12:07

Well what a disappointment. I was bored through most of it. Love John Finnemore and apart from the yellow car and Talisker couldn’t see his influence anywhere. DH said it felt like watching a CBBC show and I’m inclined to agree.

Gabriel and Beelzebub? No. Crowley and Aziraphale? Definitely no. What’s wrong with friendship? It doesn’t have to be romantic love. Don’t get me started on the awful episode with the magic show.

I hadn’t realised it was just setting up for season 3. I won’t ge watching it.

TyneTeas · 31/07/2023 13:40

I did enjoy it but I was also disappointed by it too

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ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 31/07/2023 20:30

I enjoyed the acting more than the plotting. John Hamm was surprisingly good as Jim - I hadn’t imagined him as quite such physical comedian
DT & MS clearly work well together
I love Miranda Richardson although I still think of her as the Queen in Blackadder
It did feel more like a series of sketches strung together on a thin plot line.
Having said all that I would watch a third series if it got made

Hbh17 · 31/07/2023 22:41

I'm not an expert, and have never read the book, but I loved the first series. This series was a bit underwhelming - hardly any plot and zero jeopardy (at least until the last ep). It really was just a vehicle for DT and MS..... yes, they are both fab actors and have great chemistry but DT (in particular) was just phoning it in for large parts of the show. Too many Tennant/Dr Who regular collaborators or family members too.
Unlike most people, I thought the last episode was more interesting - yes, clearly setting up series 3, but at least we had some story to engage us.

However, it does have one of the all-time great theme tunes!

PyongyangKipperbang · 01/08/2023 00:52

Hbh17 · 31/07/2023 22:41

I'm not an expert, and have never read the book, but I loved the first series. This series was a bit underwhelming - hardly any plot and zero jeopardy (at least until the last ep). It really was just a vehicle for DT and MS..... yes, they are both fab actors and have great chemistry but DT (in particular) was just phoning it in for large parts of the show. Too many Tennant/Dr Who regular collaborators or family members too.
Unlike most people, I thought the last episode was more interesting - yes, clearly setting up series 3, but at least we had some story to engage us.

However, it does have one of the all-time great theme tunes!

Totally agree that it was "Doctor Who" Lite at some points.

As some one who has read the book, I heartily recommend it as there is a lot that had to be (understandably) left out or changed for S1. But after that was released there were a lot of fan fic type reactions (again understandably) and instead of following on from the book, Gaiman basically did a fan fic for S2! Everything that was in it I have read or seen online somewhere (the "Crowley became the Doctor" theme was particularly strong), and it was bloody depressing. Its like Neil Gaiman printed off his Twitter feed and then left it at that.

BlackAmericanoNoSugar · 01/08/2023 12:10

I've finished it now, and I didn't love it the way that I loved the first series. The whole romance thing aside (which I also didn't like, I thought that they had a friendship deeper than a romance) there wasn't enough content in the plot. The first series had loads of threads that seemed distinct from each other but came together to form the denouement. So many little things that seemed like irrelevant details became important. Series two just didn't have all that much of that texture. Things happened, but not as many different things as series one, and then they were just left hanging. For example, the fact that the Nazi zombies were left walking the earth should have somehow tied into the plot conclusion.

I was also weirdly aware of how much older both main characters looked, even though it's only been four years since the first series. I know it's been a rough few years, but they both looked like they'd aged a decade.

I still love the apology dance though.

PyongyangKipperbang · 01/08/2023 23:00

Anybody got a Times subscription?

I would love to read this review

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/good-omens-review-what-have-they-done-to-my-favourite-book-2hww966rf

LilyRed · 01/08/2023 23:42

DP has the subscription but is a bit peculiar about it being shared (Old age or something...) so I've c&p the Good omens part of the article as it won't save properly on Internet archive or 12ft.io

The book of Good Omens, written by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman way back in 1990, is perhaps my favourite book of all the books there are. It has the wit of Pratchett without his occasionally cloying tweeness, and the cool of Gaiman without his hipster self-satisfaction. I love it. So when Amazon finally adapted it for television in 2019, I was angsty as hell.
The original Good Omens, you see, begins with a farcical switcheroo by which the Antichrist, intended to be deposited as a cuckoo with the American ambassador, instead ends up being brought up in the picturesque English village of Lower Tadfield. As such, it was intended by the authors to be a double parody: of the horror film franchise of The Omen, which began in 1976, and the Just William novels by Richmal Crompton, published between 1922 and 1970. Or, as your modern-day streaming audiences might put it, “The, uh, what and the what?” So all that was ditched.
Another, bigger, problem was that the core humour of the book was one of globally provincial bathos; the absurdity of apocalyptic events that belong in big, glamorous, important places (the biblical Holy Land, the United States of Goddamn America, etc) instead happening just down the road from somewhere like Amersham. I don’t recall that Pratchett and Gaiman specifically have a Beast crawling up out of the sea, but if they had done, it would probably have been making landfall next to an ice-cream van and covered in toilet paper. And, for reasons beyond the scope of this column, I’m just not sure that the general vibe — of stifled, embarrassed, uncool, late-20th-century British crapness, basically — made a lot of sense come 2019. So that was all ditched too.

Michael Sheen and David Tennant in Good Omens
MARK MAINZ/PRIME VIDEO

As a result, at least for me, the first series of Good Omens (Prime Video) was a bit weird. Also, in the book, the relationship between the demon Crowley and the angel Aziraphale — each betraying their respective sides by trying to save the world — is one dynamic among many. Here, it became the main deal, not least because of the chemistry between David Tennant and Michael Sheen, who respectively play the two of them. Originally, of course, even their dynamic was a parody, partly of Cold War spies (“Cold what, now?” says 2019) and partly of the two authors. Now it was just a couple of men, sort of flirting.

After all that, though, it was not actually bad. It just lacked magic, perhaps as a result of feeling an obligation to stick dutifully to the events of the core text while jettisoning the rationale for them. Having done this, right the way to the thwarted apocalypse with which the book ends, series two has no original work to draw upon. Funnily enough, this makes it an altogether less stressful affair.

Crowley and Aziraphale are still supernatural beings resident on Earth, but both have been fired. One morning, the angel Gabriel (a brilliant Jon Hamm) turns up at Aziraphale’s Soho rare books shop, naked and suffering from amnesia. Heaven and Hell alike are seeking him, for reasons that our heroes reckon must be alarming. So, they shelter him. Meanwhile, along the road, the record shop owner Maggie (Maggie Service) has fallen in love with the coffee shop owner Nina (Nina Sosanya). For reasons I’ll leave you to learn on your own, angel and demon end up invested in their relationship. You may recall that Service and Sosanya were in the previous series too, as satanic nuns. These characters are not explicitly connected, but in a remade world after an apocalypse that wasn’t, it’s still a nice touch.

● David Tennant: Stop demonising Good Omens

We’re also blessed with a few flashbacks, of Aziraphale and Crowley collaborating through the biblical ages. Most of these are about Aziraphale’s doubt. At creation, he frets about the godly morality of making a whole universe that could last for billions of years and planning to shut it all down after six millennia just because of events that have happened on one tiny part of it. Later, he worries about the deaths of Job’s children, slain by God to win an argument with Satan.

All of this is cleverer than it seems. One of the funniest things about this new Good Omens is its portrayal of Heaven as a cold place, good only in a tribal sense and full of angels who are blithe and naive about the reality of human suffering. Aziraphale and Crowley, by contrast, have gone native and become humanitarians. As a result, Good Omens manages to be a broadside against religion in general while also being intensely, and perhaps even covertly, Christian. Dwelling on Earth — as I gather some other chap is supposed to have done — our angel and demon represent a faith revolutionised by the concepts of love and forgiveness set against a dogmatic Old Testament backdrop that has not yet grasped either.

Philosophically, though, it’s hardly The Good Place. Good Omens on screen was never going to delight me as the book did, and it’s inevitably saddening to see it reduced to something so episodic and Sherlock-esque. Gaiman, who is the show’s key writer (Pratchett died in 2015), has suggested that a third series is on the way and that it will incorporate ideas that he and Pratchett dreamt up for a second book they never wrote. He’s probably talking about plot, though, which was never the point. Or at least, not for me. Probably I should just stop grumbling and enjoy the damn thing for what it is. When it’s a book that cleaves to your soul, though, you never quite can.

LilyRed · 01/08/2023 23:47

@PyongyangKipperbang let me know if you want the David Tennant article "David Tennant: Stop demonising Good Omens" as well from 25/07/23

BitOutOfPractice · 01/08/2023 23:51

Can I wade in with a glib aside? David Tenant - was he purposely parodying Bill Nighy?

TyneTeas · 02/08/2023 00:00

Yes, we thought that he was very Bill Nighy in places too

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PyongyangKipperbang · 02/08/2023 00:02

Hadnt noticed that at the time, but now I think about, yes I can see the similarity. The way he moved spoke and held himself seemed more exagerated than in the first one, very Billy Mack.

PyongyangKipperbang · 02/08/2023 00:03

LilyRed · 01/08/2023 23:47

@PyongyangKipperbang let me know if you want the David Tennant article "David Tennant: Stop demonising Good Omens" as well from 25/07/23

thank you, if you wouldnt mind!

LilyRed · 02/08/2023 00:30

@PyongyangKipperbang
David Tennant: Stop demonising Good Omens
Actor says people should should stop jumping to conclusions about the show that prompted a petition calling for it to be banned for blasphemy

David Tennant, with fellow “demon” Miranda Richardson, said that people are “very keen to be offended”
A common complaint about social media is that it has ushered in an era of people rushing to pass judgment before taking time to look into the perceived source of their anger. And it seems that the actor David Tennant tends to agree.

Before the return of Good Omens, BBC2 and Amazon Prime Video’s adaptation of Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman’s fantasy novel, Tennant, 52, has indicated that people should stop jumping to conclusions after 2019’s debut run prompted a petition calling for it to be banned for blasphemy.

“People are very keen to be offended,” Tennant told Radio Times. “They’re often looking for something to glom on to without possibly really examining what they think they’re complaining about.”

Tennant stars in the fantasy drama as a demon opposite Michael Sheen, who plays an angel. The opening series caused controversy as the pair joined forces in an attempt to head off an imminent apocalypse that threatened to end their amicable co-existence on Earth as the representatives of Heaven and Hell.

But Tennant said that critics who suggested that the show glamorised the Devil had misunderstood the show. “It’s not an irreligious show at all,” he said. “It’s actually very respectful of the structure of that sort of religious belief. The idea that it promotes satanism [is nonsense]. None of the characters from Hell are to be aspired to at all. They’re a dreadful bunch of non-entities.”

Sheen, who also stars opposite Tennant in the BBC lockdown comedy Staged, said that he was interested in exploring the potential for a romantic undercurrent between the two characters in the second series, which is to dig more deeply into the Bible via the story of Job.

Michael Sheen, who stars with Tennant, said that there are plenty of “grey areas” in Good Omens

“Aziraphale is a character who just loves,” he said. “How does that manifest itself in a very specific relationship with another being? Inevitably, as there is with everything in this story, there’s a grey area.”

In 2019 more than 20,000 Christians signed a petition calling for the show to be cancelled, claiming that it was “another step to make satanism appear normal, light and acceptable”, and that it “mocks God’s wisdom”.

Organised by Return to Order, the US religious group, its Facebook petition also raised concerns that God was voiced by a woman, the Antichrist was portrayed as a “normal kid with special powers” and the four riders of the apocalypse were “a group of bikers”.

Their protestations were somewhat undermined by their misdirected complaints to Netflix rather than the BBC and Amazon Prime Video.

At the time Gaiman, who is the showrunner for Good Omens, said that the outrage helped to promote the show. “It demonstrated that the people who sign petitions to get shows removed don’t actually watch them,” he said. “If anybody had, they would’ve known how silly their petition was.”

LilyRed · 02/08/2023 00:34

Meanwhile, I'm still thinking about what to write about the last episode without it becoming an essay; hmm...

PyongyangKipperbang · 02/08/2023 02:09

LilyRed · 02/08/2023 00:34

Meanwhile, I'm still thinking about what to write about the last episode without it becoming an essay; hmm...

Please write the essay! I can assure you of at least one avid reader!

PyongyangKipperbang · 02/08/2023 02:16

That petition, which I remember and I LOVED purely because of Netflix reaction to it, reminded me so much of the debate between Michael Palin, John Cleese and two major figures in the CofE (forgive me, I cannot remember who.....one was a Bishop). The CofE guys were totally slagging off The Life of Brian for being irreligious, blasphemous and disrespectful despite, by their own admission, never having seen it!

They were totally taken apart by the intelligence of JC and MP, it was utterly joyous.

Good Omens 2 - all episodes watched so spoilers aplenty to discuss
GarlicGrace · 02/08/2023 02:59

I really enjoyed it. There were some overlong scenes, but I remember S1 having those too. Audiences, I think, like a bit more exposition than I do at times ... so I get another drink at such times. I did keep saying to myself that it was "endearingly childish", in the same sort of way that Monty Python humour was: it sort of comes in sideways, so the more awareness you have of both the fictional and real-wold social context, the better the jokes!

I didn't feel A & C needed a romantic/sexual connection. The relationship's already brilliantly defined. Crowley diving in for an unwelcome snog was just off, though I did love the awkward build-up.

Unlike everyone else, I thought Aziraphael would choose the celestial promotion. He's always been a goody two-shoes; he wouldn't shrug off his dream job offer just because he's learned a few tricks while on Earth. I had to look up the significance of the Second Coming, and it's basically Armageddon 2. This sets him up for a lovely character conflict, where he'll have to fulfil his role as Chief Archangel while trying to subvert the heavenly masterplan. And of course he'll need Crowley's assistance, as he just isn't wily enough for a manoeuvre of that scale.

£8.99 well spent, imo!

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cocodilia · 02/08/2023 09:03

BitOutOfPractice · 01/08/2023 23:51

Can I wade in with a glib aside? David Tenant - was he purposely parodying Bill Nighy?

I definitely got a Bill Nighy vibe from Tennant in places. I felt both leads gave quite exaggerated performances compared to season 1: all that snarling and fluttering camp made it difficult to actually watch it in places because my eyes were rolling too hard.

LuckOfTheDrawer · 02/08/2023 09:08

Yes, I agree re DT's Bill Nighy and exaggerated performances at times.

I think I love MS. Or Aziraphale. Or possibly
both of them.

transparentday · 02/08/2023 17:52

I dont understand the ending! Did Crowley basically "rape kiss" Aziraphale? (This what we used to call an unconsented to/unwanted kiss when I was young, and yes i know its not the proper or appropriate term before anyone shouts at me). And Aziraphale's reaction suggests ambivalence to this at the very least? So yeah whoever said it wasn't a nice kiss is right

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