Heartstopper - Netflix

[MrsBooks]

Binged it, loved it, binged it again to Shazam all the music!!

Anyone else watched it?

Gay, geeky teen falls in love with supposedly straight, popular, rugby playing lad. Just very sweet high school drama.

Sorry, cross post! I was replying to truhamboys

Oh, and I missed this, but: The asexual thing annoyed me as it feels like trying to squeeze everyone into a neat little box which imo is not how life works. Issac maybe asexual/straight/bi/gay but does it matter? Can't he just be himself and see what happens?

The thing is, though, that's such a classic 'line,' isn't it? It's what people always used to say about gay teenagers and no one ever says it about straight ones. Yes, sure, Isaac could just 'be himself,' but most teenagers are trying to find out who they are, trying on identities, working out what feels right to them. If you tell a subsection of kids they should just 'be themselves' and not look for labels, the message they will get is that they're not as entitled as their peers to have that experience of working out their identities. I think it's repressive.

I figured!

"does anyone think perhaps gay teens would be a little bit more cautious about it than straight teens?"

I think you are most probably right. difficult to comment on this, not having been a gay/bi teen myself, but I can very much imagine that there would be more caution if you were.

I did wonder if the lesbian couple - who were more established, had been out for longer, and generally don't seem to have encountered homophobic bullying to the extent the boys have - might have been a bit more inclined to some heavy petting, but as PP said they are all underage and that's probably not acceptable for a TV show even if it was in the novels (I haven't read them - would like to).

Amen.

Yes, I think the fact of the all being underage and the TV show being responsible makes sense.

It is very strange to think that, until 2009, there wasn't a formal age of consent for lesbian sex.

Affection between womens and girls is seen as okay and normal, it isn’t unusual for them to hug, kiss on the cheek etc, it’s still generally not okay for boys to do that. So a lesbian couple can actually be more out and not really stand out too much in public. They’re also in the same year at school, so a similar age, where as Charlie and Nick are currently just turned 15 and almost 17, at that age it is a big difference. On top of that there is also the case that a snog can be forgiven and you can still be straight (or pretend you are), you can’t really go back on anything sexual in the same way. There also isn’t the same level of ‘interest’ from straight people regarding two women having sex, where as a certain type of straight people find it appropriate to say and post all sorts of untrue and damaging shite about two men having sex.

There also isn’t the same level of ‘interest’ from straight people regarding two women having sex, where as a certain type of straight people find it appropriate to say and post all sorts of untrue and damaging shite about two men having sex.

I ... really disagree with this one! I think the interest is of a different kind, but not lesser, and not less damaging either.

I think a lot of people see two men having sex as definitely real sex (and, as you say, an absolutely cast-iron indicator of sexuality), whereas two women ... meh, it's not really sex is it, bless them?

(Not what I think but a fair representation of an attitude IMO)

There's also the fetishisation of wlw sex ("can I watch?") whereas you just don't get that in the same way with mlm

Schrödinger's lesbian sex: hot enough to watch but not a real thing because there's no penis

Except that if TWAW, lesbian sex could well involve a penis couldn't it?

Yes it can; it can also involve a phallic object if there's a strap on.

But that doesn't tend to be the type of sex that's widely fetishised by straight men in quite the same way.

I didn't want to say it, because I love Heartstopper and Tao, but I'm with you.

Thank you

Telling other people how to define their own sexuality - I really don't know where you find the audacity.

Well, I didn't want to argue, but you're not dropping it, so I won't self-censor. You are clearly not interested in that!

Tao is a fictional character so in raising the question of whether he is technically straight or if he is bi/pansexual or whatever (because he is dating a person with male biology) is not in any way telling other people how to define their own sexuality.

For anyone in real life who is in a relationship with a trans person, I respect their right to define their sexuality however they like.

However, I have an equal right to define my own identity and sexuality. I'm straight and I have my own definition of straight which is that (as a woman) I am not sexually attracted to trans men.

There are lesbians posting on this thread; would you accuse them of transphobia if they weren't attracted to trans women? There are gay men too; are they transphobic if they're not attracted to trans men?

I don't know, I never fitted into a neat box and I don't feel repressed now or as a teen. In fact I think labelling me at a young age would have been more damaging/repressive.

But I get that that's not going to be the same for everyone.

Oh - sorry, I wasn't quite clear what I meant, @Girliefriendlikespuppies. I meant, when someone wants to find a label (as Isaac is portrayed as wanting), that's when it's unhelpful for people to say 'oh, don't label yourself'.

I don't disagree it'd be nice to show one character who didn't seem invested in defining their sexuality.

No one in the Heartstopper world is labelling Isaac. He hasn’t labelled himself yet and is beginning to investigate the possibility that he might be asexual.

He tried to talk about it with James but just got ‘you haven’t met the right person yet’ (as they alternative to something being wrong with him) which is probably what most people who are asexual hear all the time.

All his friends get excited about the possibility of him being in a relationship so they are all assuming that he isn’t asexual. I think having that possibility out there for everyone would probably be healthier than carefully avoiding labelling anyone as asexual as if it meant something was wrong.

Absolutely this.
I wouldn't tell anyone what their sexuality is unless they asked me directly, then I'd give them my opinion, politely, and wouldn't think less of them regardless of their answer, but I know what the words straight/gay/bi/pan mean to me, and I'm not changing that either.
I didn't want to say here because I really do adore the characters and show.

I agree with the points that people should be able to define their sexuality as they wish and that it’s not incorrect to say someone is straight if they date a trans person. However, in my opinion people can be as choosy as they like when it comes to choosing a sexual partner. People often have a type (height, build, hair colour etc). I think people should also be able to have a “genital preference” without being accused of being transphobic.

@AnotherEmma I agree with you. Tao is dating someone with a penis so is not straight.

I do like the character of Elle, although they do wear some very revealing clothes that I think are inappropriate on someone that age. The prom dress was very pretty though, bit low cut if they'd had boobs but fine on a flat chest.

I thought Tao was very cute when he got his hair cut for the date, he looked adorable.

I did drop it, and you brought it back up with the comment on whether or not lesbian sex can include a penis.

If you are acting like this about a character, which the author has created and written as being a straight man, then I rather doubt you would wholeheartedly accept that a real-life Tao was straight.

Being a straight woman doesn't mean that you are attracted to all men - it's very common to reject someone because they are too old, young, ginger, short, unintelligent, big cultural differences, or for the simple reason that you don't fancy them / there's no chemistry. Absolutely everyone has the right to reject a possible romantic / sexual partner on any grounds whatsoever.

No one is asking you to fancy, much less sleep with, a trans man.

Some straight women fancy men much older than themselves; it doesn't mean you have to. Some straight women will fancy men shorter than themselves, it doesn't mean you have to. Some women will fancy the pants off a man that gives you the ick. And just because some straight women will fancy a trans man, it doesn't mean that you have to. None of the above changes your sexuality or identity.

You can define your own sexuality however you like, but in your rush to do so you are deciding that you know better than other people what their sexuality is. You do you, and let other people do themselves.

@truhamboys

"I did drop it, and you brought it back up with the comment on whether or not lesbian sex can include a penis."

You said that TWAW and that a man dating a TW is straight but also said "Schrödinger's lesbian sex: hot enough to watch but not a real thing because there's no penis" - there is a complete inconsistently in your posts; you can't have it both ways. If TWAW then lesbian sex could involve a penis.

"I rather doubt you would wholeheartedly accept that a real-life Tao was straight."

As I already explained, I would respect a real-life Tao's right to define their sexuality how they like. Privately, I would not think of Tao as straight according to my own definition, but I would certainly not be so disrespectful as to say anything of the sort to Tao.
This thread is for discussion about a fictional story and fictional characters, and I object to the thought police attacking me for raising the question of whether a man dating a trans woman is, in fact, straight. Some might say he is, some might say he isn't. Since Tao is fictional he can't tell us his opinion It would be interesting to see if anything like that comes up in future seasons, but I very much doubt it, since this is supposed to be a positive tv show and since the trans issue is potentially divisive, as we have seen on this thread.

it's very common to reject someone because they are too old, young, ginger, short, unintelligent, big cultural differences, or for the simple reason that you don't fancy them / there's no chemistry.

I get that there's a whole other conversation going on here, but ... this has been such a nice thread. However you feel about @AnotherEmma's views - and the two of you do seem to be talking cross purposes a bit, I think - it's not ok to say it's 'common' to reject someone for being ginger or unintelligent. How about just go for 'the simple reason you don't fancy them'?

No one has to justify why they do or don't want to date someone, so there's no need to single out sections of the population as stereotypically unattractive.

Maybe we could get back to talking about what we actually liked/disliked about Heartstopper? Personally, I agree that Tao's haircut was very cute. I also loved seeing Elle find her 'tribe' at the art school, and I continue to adore Nick's mum.

I love Tao and Elle but realistically that would be a much bigger story than the two boys. Would Tao’s mum really have been so happy about it?