Heartstopper - Netflix

[MrsBooks]

Binged it, loved it, binged it again to Shazam all the music!!

Anyone else watched it?

Gay, geeky teen falls in love with supposedly straight, popular, rugby playing lad. Just very sweet high school drama.

Right, we’ve watched it all now, how much are we allowed to post about actual episodes.

So, we noticed a thing after the first series, so I play rugby, but I now play at an inclusive club, we’re the first and biggest inclusive club. After the last season we had an influx of young gay and bi guys who had felt forced to leave rugby as kids when they realised they weren’t straight, who then felt safe to explore sport again. The new series only came out on Thursday and we are currently on email 76, we would usually get 1-2 a week, last time we got almost a 100 in the first week of heartstopper being released. The IGR reported that this was a common theme amongst inclusive clubs when the first series was aired.

We had a little watching party this morning before training, but we did it so it was people who had already watched so we could talk about it. The main thing is that they’re just being normal 15-16 year olds, they’re not having sex, doing drugs, wild parties, their levels of drama, pettiness etc are actually fairly normal. Its nice to see something made for teenagers, with teenagers that actually has age appropriate content. Queer kids and adults rarely get to see something and go “thats me” because normally queer characters are written and portrayed as almost caricuture (how do you spell that) rather than being reflective of actual life or we’re some sex obsessed pervert.

Its nice to see a largely queer friendship group, because again thats what happens because those people when you’re growing up are safe, they’re not going to hurt you, you can be you around them, rather than having the exhaustion of being someone else all the time. I don’t have any straight friends, I didn’t past the age of about 15, there really is safety in numbers and having friends who understand you is so so important.

Having a straight male character who didn’t show any toxic masculinity is also fantastic, thats something that is very rarely seen in books, film or TV. Positive male friendships just aren’t really a thing in media.

Having interracial relationships that don’t contain a white person is again, a really lovely thing to see, as its so rare to see in books/film/TV. Plus I loved that Tara had natural hair.

The range of parents were good, I suspect a lot of teenagers will dislike Charlies parents, as from a teenage perspective they’re likely seen as unfair, where as really they’re just being responsible (if a little cold during times of frustration). Darcy’s mum is similar to the people who brought about my birth, but less extreme so far.

As someone who attended school during section 28, with parents and a home that wasn’t a safe space being able to watch or read Heartstopper would have genuinely been life changing. Straight people will never have the slightest understanding of what its like, but genuinely, it brings so much happiness and sadness because it reminds you that your childhood and teenage years, which should have been relatively happy and fairly carefree were stolen from you and they shouldn’t have been.

I also enjoyed the fact that bi erasure is covered, there is a huge huge problem with biphobia.

I am still covering my eyes at all of your posts. I planned to watch it in a measured way with DD and DP, but they've accepted I am weak. They've watches eps. 1-2 and I'm just starting episode 7. Seems I'm the odd one out - I'm absolutely loving it so far. A couple of possible weak moments and a slightly slow start, but so much that's lovely!

Well I loved it. Not as much as the first one obviously as that was amazing.

@Simonjt I was really touched by your post. I’m a straight middle aged woman and if you read my comments from last year you’ll see how powerful I found it so I can only really try to imagine how you feel and I’m really glad that this is available for LGBT kids.

I binged it yesterday and really enjoyed it.

I'm glad Nick and Charlie are still so chaste but clearly so into each other, it was very cute when Charlie heard Nick speaking French for the first time!

So ... are we discussing it? In case not I will put a spoiler dash here. I finished the series but am responding to @PaddlingLikeADuck's post, and not really spoilering so much as thinking about how the writers worked in general.

spoilers

And this isn’t meant to be a criticism but the magic of Charlie and Nick was kind of lost because it felt like every character was suddenly gay/bi/trans. The Rugby coach turned out to me married to a woman, the new teacher was gay, Elle’s new friends were gay / transgender and at one point in the last episode I thought they were on the verge of making Isobel gay/bi too with how she was staring at the female band player who surprise, surprise, was bisexual. And if that wasn’t enough Isaac was then written as a pansexual character.

It was all just a bit too try hard in my opinion. It came across as the writers wanting to be as PC and as Inclusive as they could possibly be to the point where it all just got a bit predictable and boring.

I thought you were spot on, @PaddlingLikeADuck, about Charlie's dad seeming a different character, and about Tori's straw-sucking. But I wanted to disagree with the bit above.

The thing I love about Heartstopper is it is so good at centring LGBT storylines rather than having them as the side story. So many LGBT people don't get to have a lovely, fairytale first romance, like Nick and Charlie; most LGBT people don't get to watch one on TV either - there's been nothing like Heartstopper, not really. So part of the fairytale is being surrounded by other LGBT characters. Surely?

I also thought you were off on the details (or maybe we just understood it differently). I thought we already knew that the rugby coach was gay - she strongly hints at it in S1 when she reminds Charlie that lots of people in sport are gay. And I don't think Isaac was written as pansexual - partly I think this because my understanding is that the author of the books is asexual and Isaac was originally written as that, but also because it seemed to me he was being shown experimenting with the idea of a romantic/sexual relationship with the other lad, but it just didn't do anything for him. Then at the end he finds a book about asexuality in the library, and the 'sparks fly' (the little electric flickers they use to signal something happening).

It sort of bothers me, the idea that you could only have a situation with lots of LGBT people in order to be 'PC and inclusive'. Surely Elle gravitates towards the other trans girl, not because the show is being 'PC,' but because we see art collage through her eyes. There may well be loads of students of all kinds in the room, but we don't see them.

And I didn't think it was meant to be a surprise the female band character was bi. Her sexuality came up in the context of Isobel assuming she was with the others as an ally.

Well I tried watching some of it again yesterday, taking on board everyone’s comments, but after one episode I just turned it off.

I think the biggest problem for me is that there’s just no depth to it.

In series one where it was all focused on Nick and Charlie it gave such a true picture of the issues that come with boys “coming out”,I.e bullying, confusion about sexuality, self flint, typical stereotypes and how to deal with those challenges etc, it was something that just drew me in because of all the complexities.

Season 2 just didn’t have that and it felt so superficial.

Loke, I’d have love a whole series dedicated to Elle and the challenges she faced including Tao’s feelings for her, or a whole series about Isaac’s challenges (as opposed to ‘covering’ it all in a 20 minute episode). It would also be great to have a whole series to explain the relationship between Nick’s mum and dad, why the dad has always been distant from his son’s and show more about how he responds to Nick’s news over a longer period of time, or a whole series that is all about the bullying Charlie had to endure and how the eating disorder began etc. Or a series that focuses on Tara and Darcy and what their background is, particularly with Darcy and her mother and that is clearly very
upsetting and dysfunctional.

I just like storylines that go into depth and are something that you can really get your teeth into and ones that make you feel a real connection with the characters as you learn to understand more about them and their life - and this series was simply missing all of that for me.

Im hoping Series 3 might go into these issues a bit more deeply, but for now I’m going to put Series 2 down as a “write off” for me sadly.

Im so disappointed as I really thought I’d love Series 2 in the same way I loved Series 1, but sadly not.

I know I’m in the minority but I can’t help how I feel.

That's interesting, @PaddlingLikeADuck. I didn't see S1 as being anything like as negative and angsty as you! I know that those issues were in there, but I what I loved was the fairytale/romcom aspect of it. So for me S2 felt quite similar.

I didn't want to see a series about Elle's challenges or Issac's challenges. I get that those might be interesting subjects ... but it's so depressing constantly focussing on the negative side of things. For once, it's really nice that we are not spending loads of time on Darcey's horrible mother or whatever. For me, 'depth' doesn't have to mean the traumatic stuff. It could also be really positive things, like S2's running theme about coming out not being something you owe someone, or the ongoing focus on friendships as well as relationships (in fact I loved the way this season showed a growing friendship between Nick and Tao, as well as the continuing friendship between Charlie and Tao, because so often straight men aren't shown as loving their friends and/or it's implied straight men and gay/bi men can't be friends). But YY, each to their own!

I do suspect my perspective has a lot to do with having spent my teens relentlessly searching out every tiny hint of a TV series with gay representation, and finding it was almost always extremely angsty and focussed entirely on the unhappy side of things (or sex) to the exclusion of everything else.

And this isn’t meant to be a criticism but the magic of Charlie and Nick was kind of lost because it felt like every character was suddenly gay/bi/trans. The Rugby coach turned out to me married to a woman, the new teacher was gay, Elle’s new friends were gay / transgender and at one point in the last episode I thought they were on the verge of making Isobel gay/bi too with how she was staring at the female band player who surprise, surprise, was bisexual. And if that wasn’t enough Isaac was then written as a pansexual character.

You have to consider a few things - firstly that we have 11 LGBTQ+ pupils (Nick, Charlie, Elle, Darcy, Tara, Sahar, Isaac, James, Tori, Ben, and possibly Imogen - before anyone mentions Tao, he's straight) but that's pulled from two year groups from two schools.

Is it so unrealistic to think that there would be 2-3 LGBTQ kids per year group in an average-sized school in this day and age? I don't think so - it's just that we're so used to only seeing the 'token gay friend' depicted on TV. In real life, as on TV, the LGBTQ kids have a tendency to gravitate towards each other and form a friendship group.

The teachers were already LGBT in the original source material - the tv adaptation was very faithful to the source material for Mr Ajayi and Mr Farouk (part 1) and Mr A & Mr F (part 2) and Ms Singh so it's not even slightly sudden.

I think Tori is straight. Essentially it is a fairytale. It is (mostly) how things could be or should be for LGBT+ teenagers if people were more accepting. There is no discussion about Elle moving schools or where she slept on the Paris trip. Most of the parents and kids are accepting and those that aren’t get their comeuppance.

I love the happiness in it and the music (both the series have an amazing soundtrack) You aren’t going to beat the will they / won’t they tension with Charlie and Nick in season one. Elle and Tao obviously liked each other and pretty much said so, so I don’t think their story quite worked until they got together. I loved Imogen this series - her reaction to Nick coming out, her Paris outfits, the possibility of something happening with Sahar.

I thought Tara and Darcy’s relationship was more convincing in season 2. I thought they showed Isaac’s struggle communicating his asexuality was well done - ‘you just haven’t met the right person’ etc. I wish Mr Farouk wasn’t so shouty.

Overall I really liked it as an escapist story.

I think the point of the whole show (and comic) is that it shows queer joy. I'd disagree that it's a complete fairytale - the characters deal with all sorts of difficult things, including eating disorders, bullying, self-harm, terrible family members, and difficult home lives (and exams!). What makes Heartstopper different is that its characters aren't defined by their life traumas but instead, are able to find love with partners and friends, and - really I think most of all - learn how to find resilience and support through their gang of mates, and strive for their best lives. Community matters! Part of the reason for having so many different, and differently queer, characters is to show that there isn't just one way to be queer - yes, the Nick/Charlie chemistry is amazing but I think a show just focused on those two would be claustrophobic and ultimately limiting.

Also, also - having the queer teachers felt so important too because a) yes, LGBTQ teachers exist (sometimes more than one per school!!) b) community exists between generations, and c) it's important to show (paraphrasing Mr Ajayi) that even if you did grow up under Section 28, it's never too late for queer happiness.

Anyway I loved Season 2 and thought it did a really good job in expanding the story out into something bigger. Also I loved Isaac's little rant to Harry about not being a dick.

I think Tori is straight.

She's asexual heteroromantic
in the books, so falls under the A of LGBTQIA+ - though nothing at all of her sexuality has really been depicted on the TV show yet.

I wish Mr Farouk wasn’t so shouty. Ooh, I loved shouty Mr Farouk!

I must admit, on first watching it, when Mr Farouk shouted and Mr Ajayi grinned to himself, I was sort of hoping the storyline would be that they were an established couple and the kids were just too self involved ('teachers?! teachers never have sex!') to notice. I sort of get where they were going with that storyline, but it wasn't my favourite.

And I do agree with @historyofthefuture that it's nice to show more than one gay teacher. IME it's not unusual people move in little groups, is it? Where I used to teach (post-18s, so a bit different), there was definitely a tendency for little gay enclaves to form. You apply to work somewhere because you feel it'd be inclusive. Sadly the negative is also true - not so very long ago a friend of mine was told she shouldn't feel bad about not getting a certain job, as 'a lesbian' wouldn't fit in well there; I had a job interview myself where I got the strong impression it would not have been a welcoming place for a gay person to work.

@SarahAndQuack (perhaps derailing but) I think that goes both ways too? I (a queer lady) had drinks with a friend (another queer lady) yesterday and were reminiscing about how we'd met in a work environment which was very male oriented (think engineering but more so). One of the reasons we'd become super close was because it was so exciting to have another similar person to hang out with and, in doing so, dilute the 'MAN / BEER / WELDING STATIONS' vibes of that place (we both like beer and welding but you get the idea). I'm sorry about your friend though.

Also love love love shouty Mr Farouk - whatever that line was to Ben and Nick when they were in isolation ('Fix up, man!') had me laughing so hard.

Oh, absolutely it works both ways! But the result is the same - people end up hanging out together. TV/films perpetuate this really weird idea that gay people come in ones (or at most a romantic couple). I think that's why Heartstopper initially feels 'unusual' in showing lots of people who are LGBT, because we don't generally see that on TV.

And YY to 'fix up, man!' being hilarious.

From an interview with Alice Oseman: ‘She has even told her online followers that her character Tori, who identifies as straight in Solitaire (largely because Oseman didn’t know about asexuality at the time), is probably somewhere “on the ace/aro spectrums” and that this will “become canon” in Volume Five of Heartstopper’

Charlie’s dad hasn’t really changed. He just wants Charlie to get his coursework done and both parents would have done the same if he had a girlfriend. Also Charlie’s mum is more uptight/finds taking about emotions hard and he is trying to support her.

Mmm. I think Charlie's Dad does feel different, TBH. I think in the actual series (as opposed to what it's based on), it's not at all clear Charlie's mum finds emotions hard and his dad is supporting her. I read their exchanges of glances more as the dad being unsure that the mum's reactions were quite justified - to me, especially after the grounding, the dad's look at the mum was more 'did you have to?'. And he also goes to check whether Charlie needs a meal, which I took as an attempt to show sympathy there.

Where he seems a rather different character is when he keeps repeating 'hanky panky'! I sort of get that a dad might act oddly out of surprise, but to me it came across a bit odd.

Where he seems a rather different character is when he keeps repeating 'hanky panky'! I sort of get that a dad might act oddly out of surprise, but to me it came across a bit odd

It did in the episode didn’t it, in the book is it is done in a very jokey and lighthearted dad joke way.

I love this show so much - after having boyfriends come out as gay during our relationship (at school) it’s been fun fir them to message me pics of Imogen with “you’re not the only one!”

it’s also nice to have real proper main characters who are lgbt, as a previous poster said it’s not uncommon for people to find their “tribe” and this is the group we are following in the show. It’s not that there aren’t straight people, they’re just not the main characters. Refreshing.

I really enjoyed S2. It's so refreshing and wonderful to watch a show that centres LGBT characters, and I agree it is believable that the LGBT kids would gravitate towards each other... although maybe it would be good to have a token straight character There are many reasons people might feel they don't fit in with the "norm" at school so it would be believable for a straight person to be in the friendship group too.

Anyway, I do agree that it would be good to delve deeper into some of the storylines. But overall I liked the variety and the lovely moments between the couples, as well as Isaac's lightbulb moment at the exhibition.

Agree with PP that I was a bit frustrated by how chaste they are I remember me and my friends being horny teenagers and I think they would be doing some heavy petting at least! However I guess there is a reason for it, it's entirely plausible that they don't feel ready to go further, and I also hear what others are saying about it being important to depict same-sex relationships without making it all about the sex. Come on though... lock the hotel room door, guys!!

Just finished watching this yesterday with my 17yo dd.

We both enjoyed it although found the ED storyline triggering, I wish they'd put warnings up for ED storylines. It annoyed me that this wasn't really dealt with in this series as Charlie was clearly very unwell and you'd have hoped that an adult (teacher or parent) would have picked up on something being very wrong.

I wonder how they will manage that storyline going forward and if it will reflect any of the realities of caring for and treating a teen with anorexia.

I liked the teachers storyline, thought that was really sweet and I laughed at how the adults just got on with it rather than all the snogging the teens were just going 😂

Agree that two teen boys would not be stopping at heavy petting...

The asexual thing annoyed me as it feels like trying to squeeze everyone into a neat little box which imo is not how life works. Issac maybe asexual/straight/bi/gay but does it matter? Can't he just be himself and see what happens?

This is possibly because I suspect the asexual label would be placed on me if I was a teen today and I'm not convinced that that would have been useful.

It’s not that there aren’t straight people, they’re just not the main characters.

although maybe it would be good to have a token straight character

Tao is straight

Agree with PP that I was a bit frustrated by how chaste they are

The author wants to make the book as accessible to as many people as possible, so has chosen not to depict underage sex. In the comics they go further almost immediately after Charlie's 16th birthday.

The asexual thing annoyed me as it feels like trying to squeeze everyone into a neat little box which imo is not how life works. Issac maybe asexual/straight/bi/gay but does it matter? Can't he just be himself and see what happens?

Representation is important. When was the last time any of us saw positive asexual representation on TV?

When I was that age in the 2000s, the only time anyone mentioned asexual was in a biology class, talking about plant reproduction. Back then the options were "straight", "gay" or "tranny" of which obviously only one was acceptable.

I wonder how they will manage that storyline going forward and if it will reflect any of the realities of caring for and treating a teen with anorexia.

You can read ahead in the comics, for free, on Webtoon or Tapas. I think the consensus is that it's dealt with sensitively, including an inpatient stay.

Maybe Tao is straight but he's dating a trans girl, so he's in a romantic relationship with a biological male... as a straight woman I wouldn't date a trans man I'm afraid. I don't think it's as simple as calling him straight, he is clearly a bit more flexible than that.

Trans women are women.

Tao does not have any interest in Elle romantically until after she transitioned.

In the words of Coach Singh, it's very rude to speculate on other people's sexuality.

It is even ruder to tell someone that they're wrong about their own sexuality because of your personal views on gender identity and sexuality.

Tao is straight because he says he is, and that's really all there is to it.

We don't actually see Elle before she transitions, so as far as the TV series goes, we don't know whether or not Tao had any interest in her before that.

I don't think we need to treat fictional characters as if they were real people.

But I agree that the series just quite uncomplicatedly presents Tao as straight. Until the very last episode of the last series, we'd every indication Isabel was straight too, I think?

I am too out of contact with teens this age to be sure whether the sex stuff is realistic or not - maybe I'm really out of date, but does anyone think perhaps gay teens would be a little bit more cautious about it than straight teens? I mean, it's that bit less scripted, isn't it? Anyway, I like it. I think it's adorable and I'm quite happy suspending any disbelief.

I really don't want to get into an argument on this thread so perhaps we can agree to disagree and move on