The Handmaid's Tale S4 at C4 pace (no spoilers from Hulu subscribers) Thread 2

[OverByYer]

Under his eye

@Freecuthbert

So about the whole Serena thing... I'm a bit confused. So are they saying Serena essentially raped June via Nick, or that Nick raped June and Serena was an accessory to that/facilitated it? I do understand that Nick and June had to have sex in order to produce a baby for Serena, but who is the rapist? Serena or Nick? June says the baby was born out of love and she obviously doesn't feel that she was raped by Nick, and it seems Nick didn't exactly have a choice either. Am I even making sense??

Serena coerced them both into sex. June was forced since she was a slave, and nick was coerced. Nicole wasn't conceived that time. They started having consensual sex after that and she was conceived at a later point, if I remember correctly. I don't think anyone would say that Nick raped June. He didn't have any power at that point and he was also coerced.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

Okay that makes more sense. I think I'm getting confused because as far as I know only a man can get tried for rape in the UK and I'm not familiar with how it works elsewhere.

Yes, June was property and therefore didn't have an option regardless of whether she technically agreed or not. Nick was in a slightly better position but he was still an employee and would find it difficult in that regime to say no . I think they continued to have the official sex after the ceremony so that any pregnancy would be explainable as Fred's doing, but then obviously have their own relationship too.

Everything else Serena was involved with can be countered in that as a woman she was basically doing as she was told but this can't be attributed to Fred or Gilead so effectively she made them have sex/rape on both parts really. Nick was also under her power as an "employee"

@Freecuthbert conviction for rape would be the least of Nick's worry if he is convicted in Canada! He's committed genocide

I remember the discussion on the thread at the time when nick had sex with Eden who was very young. 14ish? And we were trying to decide if it was rape because nick had no choice unless he wanted to essentially be killed.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop
Oh yes! I am sure he could be tried as a war criminal really due to his involvement, and Serena also said before that Gilead wouldn't be here if it weren't for Nick, so he must have been quite instrumental. Although from Nick's flashbacks it does seem he was groomed into it and was desperate at the time. But he's still responsible for a lot of deaths and everything else he has done over the years. He's in too deep now. It seems that June cannot really have a future with Nick, they can't exactly run off to Canada together because he's a war criminal. And they can't be together in Gilead, or at least nothing more than sneaking around. I wonder if she'll reunite with Luke.

@MotionActivatedDog
I was wondering the same thing about that as well! On a side note, do we know how old Nick is? He seems younger than June to me for some reason.

Elisabeth moss = 38
June Osborn = 34

Max minghella = 35
Nick Blaine = 26

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

I think her crime is that she essentially acted as a 'madam' to June forcing Nick to rape her

I don't know the law, but I can imagine there might be a case for Nick and June both effectively being raped by Serena in this context. Depends on the definition of rape i guess and whether it is first-person only

It's similar to the incident with Joseph and June and the ceremony. Neither of them consented but he didn't rape her. They were both coerced.

Not really sure why June loves Nick. He's very good looking but doesn't demonstrate much personality or backbone, both of which would be important to June I think? The age difference seems to make this more stark to me.... she is a real grown up. They have very little in common in terms of values given that (as far as we know) he is basically akin to a jihadi in actions if not spirit.

Is it so very different from Janine falling for stephen because he may have shown her a few kindnesses (between the coerced sex sessions of course - stephen not Nick)?

That's true @CloseYourEyesAndSee though arguably a more exaggerated form given the levels of power held by those involved. Lawrence higher ranking than Nick

Serena had a metaphorical gun pointed at them. I don't know the specific name for the crime, and it's probably different in the UK and Canada anyway, but Serena was morally and legally the guilty party.

@GoingGently

Not really sure why June loves Nick. He's very good looking but doesn't demonstrate much personality or backbone, both of which would be important to June I think? The age difference seems to make this more stark to me.... she is a real grown up. They have very little in common in terms of values given that (as far as we know) he is basically akin to a jihadi in actions if not spirit.

Is it so very different from Janine falling for stephen because he may have shown her a few kindnesses (between the coerced sex sessions of course - stephen not Nick)?

He was very kind to her in the past - he's helped her countless times. He's the father of her child (she thinks). Remember she fell in love with him when he was just a driver.

Is it so very different from Janine falling for stephen because he may have shown her a few kindnesses (between the coerced sex sessions of course - stephen not Nick)?

I think when Janine said “I see fine” in response to June trying to persuade her that Stephen was a bad idea, she was right & she knew exactly what she was getting into. Stephen seemed like her best chance of having a baby she’d actually be able to keep so she was going to make the best of him .

I think the fact that she gave the cap she was so excited about to June instead showed where her real priority was though, even if she didn’t know it herself at the time.

I really, really hope she makes it to Canada, falls in love with a wonderful man & has a family.

@YoutubeZoom

Serena said something like "we would not be where we are without Nick", so I assumed he was one of the terrorists at the Capitol. Or definitely had a well-known active role in the insurrection.

I cannot remember the first few scenes with Nick. But wasn't he made a driver and joined the Waterford household to keep an eye on them?

That line really jumped out at me when I re-watched series 3 and your assumption makes sense. Like others, I'm not quite sure what to make of Nick - is he a 'true believer' or just going with the flow?

I've said it here before, but June loves Nick because of their circumstances. If you're living under a regime like Gilead where you have no rights, nobody to turn to, are routinely raped etc etc, I imagine you would fall for anyone who shows you any kind of affection. It's that same need for human contact and love that has maintained June's feelings for Nick throughout being separated and after learning more about what he had done. He was the only person in several years to care about her and see her as human, not as a uterus.

Where did you find those ages @MotionActivatedDog? IIRC June said she was 34 in her monologue when she first escaped at the beginning of S2 so would now be 36ish. I've never heard Nick's age being referred to in the show.

For June and nick it was on the wiki fandom site.

Was it really Moira in the end or has June imagined it?

Well we know Moira does aid work but I'm not entirely sure June even knows Moira is in Canada? I don't think it's a dream

I wonder when you're considered to be too old to be a handmaid?

@Iggi999

I wonder when you're considered to be too old to be a handmaid?

I guess when you aren't fertile any more. What do they do with retired handmaid's though. Do they get sent to the colonies? Or some kind of retirement home for well behaved handmaids .

Maybe the well behaved ones become aunts?

@MotionActivatedDog

Maybe the well behaved ones become aunts?

No chance They are fallen women. Aunts are responsible for training daughters as well as handmaids. They have to be 'virtuous'