Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[MyFloorIsLava]

Spoiler-free thread to discuss the upcoming Marvel series on Disney+.

I wasn't excited about this but the trailer has made me excited. Unlike WandaVision, the trailer and promo art make it fairly obvious (I think) who one of the Big Bads will be. Also looks like it will be quite funny, carrying on the energy that Sam and Bucky had in Captain America Civil War.

Interesting that the first and last episodes (which were both the weakest) were written by the show creator. Vanity writing. The middle episodes had some superb moments.

Very much wasted potential @MyFloorIsLava, a real shame. I was thinking Bucky could have had that interesting volatility of a Tony Stark-type in future Avengers films, but it feels like they’ve just chucked it away in favour of him becoming a Disney stepdad.

Sadly not that impressed. Hate the suit - far too white (no good for bloodstains!), stupid neckline, squished ears. Disappointed that it wasn’t Kinetic like the Black Panthers suit - that would have made more sense (and made up for Sam not being a super soldier).

Not impressed by Poundland’s redemption, and a clunky way to make him US Agent.

Called it with Sharon, but I’m so annoyed with them calling her Agent Carter - NO! She’s besmirched Peggy’s name.

Wanted more Bucky - love him returning to his Ladies Man persona.

The Zemo smile was my favourite bit, he got his way in the end.

It was an ok episode but nowhere near the power of the Wandavison finale, nor the action and adventure of Episode 4.

Going to watch the two new Assemble episodes tomorrow, the Wandavison one was great, so hopefully these will be too.

(A whole bloody month till Loki - not sure I’m gonna last that long!)

I agree that it felt a bit flat. It didn't have the catharsis of WV finale.

Zemo & Val were great - I hope we see Zemo again.

Bucky did seem in the background but I guess Sam needed to headline this ep in becoming Cap.

I think it felt like they had too much to tie up & instead of having more episodes they decided to condense it into one.

Agree Sharon has gone really dark! & she most definitely it's Agent Carter But I guess that's the point - it's meant to annoy fans that she be associated with Peggy.

Now does this lead into a new film or a second series?

They have just announced a Captain America 4 movie with the new Captain America.

Steve went back to Peggy at the time they knew Howard Stark so he could've fixed the shield or made a new one as he was the one who made it in the first place?

DP isn't here til Tuesday so unless I watch it alone then pretend I haven't, my disappointment in the ending will have to wait😄 although from other comments I'm imagining Bucky ending up on the boat like lieutenant Dan in Forest Gump after making peace with god 😂

Hopefully Loki will be better.

I really hope that, if Bucky’s in this captain America 4 film, they keep the complexity he had for most of this series. His assassin skills combined with an ambiguous moral code (born of his dark past) made him a great foil for Sam, like Black Widow did in the second Cap film. If Bucky is just a jolly sidekick there’s really no point.

I can’t get excited about Loki, I’ve never found him very interesting, plus I absolutely hate time travel plots. They never make sense.

I think I’m reaching the limits of my interest in the MCU sadly, though it had a brilliant run. Aside from Wandavision (and, to a lesser extent, captain Marvel), it’s been a bit of a let down in the last two years.

Peggy Carter would be turning in her grave.

It was so weird that Sam took Karli's body(?)(is she definitely dead?) out to the street then gave a 'rousing' speech, but just left Sharon lying there, potentially bleeding out! All through his speech DH and I were shouting "what about Sharon?"

Well, I really enjoyed the finale!! Although I don’t disagree with most of the criticisms raised, I just breezed past them to enjoy the moment whilst watching. Apart from they really should have edited Sam’s sermon down, and cut the very last scene with Sharon on the phone - just the smirk to camera was plenty, thankyou. I didn’t mind most of the other clunkiness. But it did seem like the pacing of the episode was off - the conclusion was basically in the middle of the episode, and then all the tension was gone and the rest of it was interminable mini-epilogue after mini-epilogue, so overall it had a fairly disjointed feel, like noone had really carefully interwoven all these strands of storyline like usually happens in MCU. Maybe I just have too high expectations, it’s cartoon heroes and villains at the end of the day. I understand they had to majorly rewrite the story and remove a virus epidemic as a major plotline, for obvious reasons, so I guess this is the result of having to reverse-engineer a new story into what they’d already shot pre-Covid.

My favourite line was nameless agent - “but I thought Captain America was on the moon?”. I proper snarfed at that. WHERE IS OLD MAN CAP?!??

I loved Sam’s suit, it felt old school comic style. Although I did think, wouldn’t the top of his head get cold flying about, if you’re going to have the big headband bit why not just cover the head, but somehow that never bothered me before when he was basically zooming about with just cool shades on.

I didn’t really notice that Val/John/wife were in the govt building but you’re right that makes little sense. Maybe Val has connections.

Steve went back to Peggy at the time they knew Howard Stark so he could've fixed the shield or made a new one as he was the one who made it in the first place?
Ah, now I really like that explanation @Whatsnewpussyhat. Will incorporate that into my head canon!

I am psyched for Loki because I do love both the character and time travel, so I can understand not being fussed if those don’t do it for you!

@MyFloorIsLava

Peggy Carter would be turning in her grave.

It was so weird that Sam took Karli's body(?)(is she definitely dead?) out to the street then gave a 'rousing' speech, but just left Sharon lying there, potentially bleeding out! All through his speech DH and I were shouting "what about Sharon?"

I said that too but DP pointed out Sharon is still a fugitive at that point so wouldn’t want to be taken to official medical help anyway.

I understand they had to majorly rewrite the story and remove a virus epidemic as a major plotline

I hadn't heard this, if the Flag Smashers were engineering biological weapons that would have made them a more credible enemy. They just weren't, to channel Mysterio, an Avengers-level threat.

Yes I suppose if there have been major rewrites that explains a lot. I found it quite hard to follow what the Flag Smashers were actually complaining about all along - all we saw was a handful of well fed people in huge, empty “refugee camps”. There was a lot of talk (and clunky exposition) about what a huge problem it was, but we never saw anything.

If the original plot was a major TB outbreak in the camps (hence the stolen vaccines), that would have felt more likely to radicalise people in such a short space of time.

I mean this is what, six months after the blip? Is Karli supposed to have been put in a camp, formed a parent-child bond with Donya, escaped, gone to Madripoor, worked for Sharon, stolen serum and formed a worldwide terrorist organisation in that time? Oh and learned enough martial arts to clobber the world’s most dangerous assassins etc.

When Sam appeared in his new outfit I said to DH:

He looks like Frozone from The Incredibles.

To be fair, I can see how having to remove a pandemic storyline from the centre of this would have really gutted the Flag-Smashers storyline and left them relying on vagueness and Sam's awful speech to fill the gap. But yes, they should have cut Sharon's phone call and still had her smirk. And I don't think they should have cut away from Bucky's explanation to the old man either. Presumably Bucky is still living this terrible bare life sleeping on the floor in an empty apartment, and now minus his elderly friend as well. (No wonder he didn't mind sleeping on Sarah's couch...)

The one thing the show did really well for me was complicate and layer Bucky - bring back the cocky, light-hearted flirt and also, imo, give some texture to what it might feel like to remember having murdered so many people, but not to have been himself or been in control, as it were, while doing it.

Still waiting on some Sam/Bucky fanfic recs over on the fic thread...

It did really feel for a half second like Bucky and Sam might kiss in that final scene. But then the Cap series has always had homoerotic shades. The fact that even Steve Rogers apparently forgot all about poor Sharon when he went on the lam after Civil War says it all.

I do think it didnt help the actress who played Karli didn't seem believable...the whole Flag smashers bit definitely the weakest part of it all. Makes more sense if the story was changed a lot cause what we got..wasnt good. What a shame they're all dead!!
Loved Zemo can still get stuff done!

All did seem a bit rushed. Know probably to set up future films but still. And the whole Sharon twist wasn't that shocking either. Be intresting to see how that plays out!

@YesItsAPeacock

It did really feel for a half second like Bucky and Sam might kiss in that final scene. But then the Cap series has always had homoerotic shades. The fact that even Steve Rogers apparently forgot all about poor Sharon when he went on the lam after Civil War says it all.

I think part of the success of the MCU is that it actually took the time to appeal to the female gaze. (Cough, CapAss, cough.) And Joss Whedon, for one, knows there is money in HomoeroticismYay.

Very true bunglebee there are some truly beautiful men in the MCU.

Did anyone else think Sam crossed a line with his obsessive need to fix other people’s problems? I hope that becomes a character flaw, rather than him turning into a Mary Sue.

All through the series he was insisting on helping everyone, even when they specifically asked him not to - Sarah, Bucky, Sharon, Isiah, Karli, John.

It’s a very Cap trait I suppose, but it felt uncomfortable to me at times.

I thought pre-emptively setting up that museum exhibit was really out of line. He needs to learn about boundaries.

That is America’s ass

I mean, once you get to Captain America approvingly checking out his own ass, I think you're at HoYay squared.

I agree on Sam, @YesItsAPeacock. Isaiah was very specific about what he wanted and Sam ignored him. I liked when the show remembered he used to counsel at the VA but he's in danger of becoming Captain Overbearing.

He is obviously very good at helping people - he was great for Bucky and I loved how he kept quietly checking he was okay when they were on Karli’s trail in Europe. But he crossed the line in a minor way with Sarah and in a major way with Isaiah, and I think his saviour complex would be an interesting thing to explore, if they don’t blow it by pretending it’s totally fine.

I mean, he basically tried to fix the entire world in one conversation. That’s a bit messed up. Plus Zemo turned out to be bang on about Karli, yet Sam didn’t stop to reflect on that.

@YesItsAPeacock this was meant to be 6 months after the second blip - so Karli etc would have actually had 5+ years living abroad, forming new lives etc & then with the second blip all of it changed again when everything returned.

[quote APurpleSquirrel]@YesItsAPeacock this was meant to be 6 months after the second blip - so Karli etc would have actually had 5+ years living abroad, forming new lives etc & then with the second blip all of it changed again when everything returned. [/quote]
Yes exactly - their lives were supposed to be good during the blip, so all this refugee camp / Madripoor / revolutionary warfare stuff has happened within six months.

And another thing. Why did Bucky just stand there watching the armoured truck nearly fall over the bridge? Yes he can't fly, but he's a supersoldier, he's stronger and more agile than Sam. It just all felt very contrived for Sam to publicly "save the day" and be set up as Cap.

I suppose they had to give Sam enough hero moments to make up for the fact that his first major adversary as Cap was a tiny teenage girl.

Does anyone know why Zemo was in Bucky's list of names? I can't fathom it at all. That scene by the Sokovia memorial was very moving, and I loved Zemo's gesture to cross his own name off. I assumed that Bucky had added it post-prison break, knowing that he was using Zemo as a means to an end. But then in the finale Zemo's name was near the top of the old list. Why? Zemo's family was killed by Ultron / The Avengers.