Falcon and The Winter Soldier

[MyFloorIsLava]

Spoiler-free thread to discuss the upcoming Marvel series on Disney+.

I wasn't excited about this but the trailer has made me excited. Unlike WandaVision, the trailer and promo art make it fairly obvious (I think) who one of the Big Bads will be. Also looks like it will be quite funny, carrying on the energy that Sam and Bucky had in Captain America Civil War.

[YesItsAPeacock]

@bunglebee

Thanks *@LemonViolet*! I may rewatch the trailer.

The actor problem is an issue with the kind of character continuity they've set as a bar with such a huge, sprawling universe. Presumably it's also mindbendingly expensive to keep so many actors on contract and it takes a big tentpole movie like Endgame to make it worth it.

Yes, it’s difficult for Marvel because comic books work like soap operas, but they’re using diva A listers, not soap actors. I suppose this is why they keep making new franchises and have to hope the audience can get into them enough to forget about their favourite characters.

I don’t know if any transition could ever work as well as Sam becoming Cap has though (and even that had to involve a maddening time travel plot).

[YesItsAPeacock]

Vision’s always been a bit of a joke though, hasn’t he? He’s too powerful to make most of the stories work, so they just keep finding excuses to bench him. He’s supposed to be the suit of armour around the world, but other than helping to kill Ultron he’s done bugger all.

[MyFloorIsLava]

@LemonViolet

Another thought as I was just re-reading our Wandavision discussion. Where is White Vision during the events of FATWS??? It was six months ago in-universe that he zoomed off with his memories intact to go and meditate about boats and who he really was. There are global terrorist events going on that a former Avenger is tackling, and he doesn’t show up to lend a hand? There’s no way he doesn’t know, I’m sure his brain basically is the internet. His skills could have been very very useful.

I just don't think half a dozen grumpy drama school kids 'refugees' is an Avengers level threat.

[bunglebee]

Didn't the events of WV mostly take place in that six months, though? I thought she and Vision lived in Westview for several months, and it was probably about a week or two after the unBlippening that she went to see Vision's body and had her breakdown.

Your point still holds but timeline-wise I think he fairly recently zoomed off.

[LemonViolet]

Another thought as I was just re-reading our Wandavision discussion. Where is White Vision during the events of FATWS??? It was six months ago in-universe that he zoomed off with his memories intact to go and meditate about boats and who he really was. There are global terrorist events going on that a former Avenger is tackling, and he doesn’t show up to lend a hand? There’s no way he doesn’t know, I’m sure his brain basically is the internet. His skills could have been very very useful.

[bunglebee]

Thanks @LemonViolet! I may rewatch the trailer.

The actor problem is an issue with the kind of character continuity they've set as a bar with such a huge, sprawling universe. Presumably it's also mindbendingly expensive to keep so many actors on contract and it takes a big tentpole movie like Endgame to make it worth it.

[LemonViolet]

Ok..... there is now :-)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/telly_addicts/4227982-Loki-Disney-starting-June-11-MCU-fans-assemble

[LemonViolet]

Is there a Loki thread yet?

[LemonViolet]

At this point I am starting to believe Old Man Cap actually is on the moon.

[YesItsAPeacock]

It’s also why the MCU will ultimately be unsatisfying to anyone very invested in the characters. I’ve never read the comics, but of course the advantage they have is they can keep a character going as long as they want. The MCU has to wrangle with actors and agents, so each character is time limited, and none of them are Doctor Who - rebooting them ain’t going to cut it every time.

I fully expect Bucky to meet a tragic end in Cap 4, purely because I can’t see Sebastian Stan wanting to slog it out for another ten years.

It’s kind of sad that the stories are so hampered by the vagaries of Hollywood. Some of the films have been so brilliant, but I almost always end up feeling let down with the pay offs.

[YesItsAPeacock]

This is why I hate time travel. Always raises way more questions than it answers.

[bunglebee]

Also, where is Old Steve? You can't tell me that after such a long time of being so close, Bucky wouldn't go and see him. It's only 6 months since Steve handed the shield over, and he's not dead. Obviously Chris Evans is no longer under contract and they wouldn't have wanted to pay him or faff around with CGI aging, but I would have settled for Sam or Bucky talking about how they were going to see Steve or what he'd said to them. Just so many questions, and I'm not sure that the relationship payoffs really got earned, much as I wanted them to happen.

[YesItsAPeacock]

I suppose they had to give Sam enough hero moments to make up for the fact that his first major adversary as Cap was a tiny teenage girl.

Does anyone know why Zemo was in Bucky's list of names? I can't fathom it at all. That scene by the Sokovia memorial was very moving, and I loved Zemo's gesture to cross his own name off. I assumed that Bucky had added it post-prison break, knowing that he was using Zemo as a means to an end. But then in the finale Zemo's name was near the top of the old list. Why? Zemo's family was killed by Ultron / The Avengers.

[bunglebee]

And another thing. Why did Bucky just stand there watching the armoured truck nearly fall over the bridge? Yes he can't fly, but he's a supersoldier, he's stronger and more agile than Sam. It just all felt very contrived for Sam to publicly "save the day" and be set up as Cap.

[YesItsAPeacock]

[quote APurpleSquirrel]@YesItsAPeacock this was meant to be 6 months after the second blip - so Karli etc would have actually had 5+ years living abroad, forming new lives etc & then with the second blip all of it changed again when everything returned. [/quote]
Yes exactly - their lives were supposed to be good during the blip, so all this refugee camp / Madripoor / revolutionary warfare stuff has happened within six months.

[APurpleSquirrel]

@YesItsAPeacock this was meant to be 6 months after the second blip - so Karli etc would have actually had 5+ years living abroad, forming new lives etc & then with the second blip all of it changed again when everything returned.

[YesItsAPeacock]

He is obviously very good at helping people - he was great for Bucky and I loved how he kept quietly checking he was okay when they were on Karli’s trail in Europe. But he crossed the line in a minor way with Sarah and in a major way with Isaiah, and I think his saviour complex would be an interesting thing to explore, if they don’t blow it by pretending it’s totally fine.

I mean, he basically tried to fix the entire world in one conversation. That’s a bit messed up. Plus Zemo turned out to be bang on about Karli, yet Sam didn’t stop to reflect on that.

[bunglebee]

I mean, once you get to Captain America approvingly checking out his own ass, I think you're at HoYay squared.

I agree on Sam, @YesItsAPeacock. Isaiah was very specific about what he wanted and Sam ignored him. I liked when the show remembered he used to counsel at the VA but he's in danger of becoming Captain Overbearing.

[LemonViolet]

That is America’s ass

[YesItsAPeacock]

Very true bunglebee there are some truly beautiful men in the MCU.

Did anyone else think Sam crossed a line with his obsessive need to fix other people’s problems? I hope that becomes a character flaw, rather than him turning into a Mary Sue.

All through the series he was insisting on helping everyone, even when they specifically asked him not to - Sarah, Bucky, Sharon, Isiah, Karli, John.

It’s a very Cap trait I suppose, but it felt uncomfortable to me at times.

I thought pre-emptively setting up that museum exhibit was really out of line. He needs to learn about boundaries.

[bunglebee]

@YesItsAPeacock

It did really feel for a half second like Bucky and Sam might kiss in that final scene. But then the Cap series has always had homoerotic shades. The fact that even Steve Rogers apparently forgot all about poor Sharon when he went on the lam after Civil War says it all.

I think part of the success of the MCU is that it actually took the time to appeal to the female gaze. (Cough, CapAss, cough.) And Joss Whedon, for one, knows there is money in HomoeroticismYay.

[LetsGoFlyAKiteee]

I do think it didnt help the actress who played Karli didn't seem believable...the whole Flag smashers bit definitely the weakest part of it all. Makes more sense if the story was changed a lot cause what we got..wasnt good. What a shame they're all dead!!
Loved Zemo can still get stuff done!

All did seem a bit rushed. Know probably to set up future films but still. And the whole Sharon twist wasn't that shocking either. Be intresting to see how that plays out!

[YesItsAPeacock]

It did really feel for a half second like Bucky and Sam might kiss in that final scene. But then the Cap series has always had homoerotic shades. The fact that even Steve Rogers apparently forgot all about poor Sharon when he went on the lam after Civil War says it all.

[bunglebee]

To be fair, I can see how having to remove a pandemic storyline from the centre of this would have really gutted the Flag-Smashers storyline and left them relying on vagueness and Sam's awful speech to fill the gap. But yes, they should have cut Sharon's phone call and still had her smirk. And I don't think they should have cut away from Bucky's explanation to the old man either. Presumably Bucky is still living this terrible bare life sleeping on the floor in an empty apartment, and now minus his elderly friend as well. (No wonder he didn't mind sleeping on Sarah's couch...)

The one thing the show did really well for me was complicate and layer Bucky - bring back the cocky, light-hearted flirt and also, imo, give some texture to what it might feel like to remember having murdered so many people, but not to have been himself or been in control, as it were, while doing it.

Still waiting on some Sam/Bucky fanfic recs over on the fic thread...

[iklboo]

When Sam appeared in his new outfit I said to DH:

He looks like Frozone from The Incredibles.