It's a sin... [MNHQ Warning: contains spoilers]

[sandybeaches74]

Is it not the most moving tv series in a long time? I've sat here tonight wiping tears away and am not normally the overly emotional type...

I think one of the most heartbreaking things when recalling the ads, the fear, the definite death sentence when someone was diagnosed HIV positive back then is to see how, in just a few short years later, medical science did astonishing work in creating effective medications allowing those affected to live long, fulfilling lives.

Devastating to think of all the wonderful, talented people who died horribly only a handful of years before effective help was available.
(Freddie Mercury always springs to mind when I think of this.)

Brilliant link @SimonJT! This should be more widely publicised!

@SimonJT if you’re referring to me then I think you’ve completely missed my point. I have no doubt that the real Jill was anything but lacking and sad. That’s my issue really. And I don’t think her character as portrayed in the series was lacking or sad either. But we only saw one side of her - an amazingly selfless side. It wasn’t balanced. It didn’t seem real. And it’s a big shame that the aspects shown were of her doing solely “women’s work” while the men were varied and complex characters.

If channel 4 cut it down and the writer has said he wished he had more time for her then that basically acknowledges the point I’m trying to make.

I also thought the scene with Valerie at the end was extremely powerful. I actually thought it was unfair that Jill blamed her for their home being loveless because actually it seemed to be Ritchie’s father who was more aggressive/unsupportive throughout all the earlier episodes, while Valerie was constantly trying to see Ritchie more, and smooth things over between him and his dad. Like a pp I think Valerie’s actions at the end were motivated by jealousy of his relationship with Jill and a desire to reclaim her son.

[quote FolkSongSweet]@SimonJT if you’re referring to me then I think you’ve completely missed my point. I have no doubt that the real Jill was anything but lacking and sad. That’s my issue really. And I don’t think her character as portrayed in the series was lacking or sad either. But we only saw one side of her - an amazingly selfless side. It wasn’t balanced. It didn’t seem real. And it’s a big shame that the aspects shown were of her doing solely “women’s work” while the men were varied and complex characters.

If channel 4 cut it down and the writer has said he wished he had more time for her then that basically acknowledges the point I’m trying to make.

I also thought the scene with Valerie at the end was extremely powerful. I actually thought it was unfair that Jill blamed her for their home being loveless because actually it seemed to be Ritchie’s father who was more aggressive/unsupportive throughout all the earlier episodes, while Valerie was constantly trying to see Ritchie more, and smooth things over between him and his dad. Like a pp I think Valerie’s actions at the end were motivated by jealousy of his relationship with Jill and a desire to reclaim her son.[/quote]
There's a scene where Ritchie is on the phone to his mother and Ritchie ends the call by telling his mother 'I love you'. His mother does not respond.

I think Jill is pretty accurate when she declares their home to be loveless, because Valerie has no real love for her son; she can't even bring herself to tell him that she loves him too.

the aspects shown were of her doing solely “women’s work”

Some “women’s work”. She lay down in the road with them and got injured by the police with them, she researched the facts they couldn’t face, she found a barrister and sprung Colin from solitary confinement in a locked ward, she put a roof over their heads. She had no skin in that game apart from her love and friendship for those guys yet she was a warrior.

@ChewieDanvers

Typical of Russell T Davies really, as big a fan of his as I am he just doesn't seem to know how to write women.

I’m not sure that’s fair. Hazel, Rosalie, Janice and Marie are all very well-written women in Queer as Folk. Rose is a titular character and very rounded and real in Bob and Ross (as is Holly). Cleo is well-written with a big storyline in Cucumber, Vivienne even more so (and she gets her own Banana episode!) and Judith is arguably the better written main character in Second Coming.

You could argue that in his big gay dramas women play the secondary roles of mothers, sisters and friends I suppose, but as they’re dramas about gay men that’s not a massive shock.

There’s plenty of reasons to be cross about how women are portrayed on telly for sure. But I can’t get cross about this. It’s not RTDs job to write fair parts for everyone along feminist/racial lines when he’s trying to do something else first (like write the first ever gay drama or first ever AIDS drama). Maybe we should be encouraging (and funding!) more writing and writers from all kinds of backgrounds so that every demographic gets a shot.

I loved this show but really interesting to hear the discussion about Jill on here - it echoes my thoughts. I know 'Jill' is a real person but that doesn't let RTD off the hook - in a series with 5 characters the one main woman should have been able to pass the Bechdel Test in at least one scene, especially as it was a gay drama.

Also interesting that everyone thinks she's straight or asexual - an awful lot of the labour of caring for men with HIV/AIDS was done by lesbians. I know there's a RL Jill but all the same...

There's a scene where Ritchie is on the phone to his mother and Ritchie ends the call by telling his mother 'I love you'. His mother does not respond.

@sansucre I'm around the age the characters would be now and I love you just wasn't said in our house, It would have been considered American and a bit odd, I think. My brother is 15 years younger than me though and by the time he came along it was fairly common to hear. I don't think that means my folks didn't love me and do love my brother - I just think times change.

There’s an article about Jill on the BBC site today.

From what she says about her life it sounds like RTD got her spot on, which is hardly surprising really. She absolutely dedicated those years to looking after her friends

@HermioneMakepeace

I lost 12 friends between 1985-86 to AIDS. It did very much feel like a moral crusade against gay men, at the beginning. That is, until people started dying.

I have never spoken about this before, but I was living in a shared house in early 1985. It was a drug-free house. One of our housemates ‘L’ became quite unwell whilst living with us. He had lumps in his armpits but the doctor didn’t know what they were. To be honest, we were not very sympathetic and he took to his bed.

One night one of the housemates found a load of empty Codeine bottles in a cupboard in the bathroom. ‘L‘ had been self-medicating, in spite of the very strict anti-drug rules of the house. We called a house meeting where L owned up but said he was taking the Codeine because he was in so much pain due to the lumps in his armpits.

A decision was made to kick him out. In the middle of the night. He had nowhere to go. We found out a few months later that he had AIDS. We had no idea. He was only 19.

Within months, so many friends got sick. People that didn’t know each other. It was like HIV had come from nowhere and infected so many non-related groups of people.

What a disgusting bunch of people.

That's harsh @Mookie81 they didn't know about AIDS and evicting a drug user from a drug-free house isn't unreasonable. I suppose they could have waited until the morning but there's nothing she can do about it now.

That's the same for my parents @HoldontoOneMoreDay I don't think they ever said I love you they were warm and caring parents and I absolutely do know they love me and are affectionate it's just not something that's ever been said ,actions speak louder than words and for all her faults Ritchie's mum did love him if she didn't she wouldn't have visited or got upset when he was ill I think it's a generational thing .

@CaptainMyCaptain

That's harsh *@Mookie81* they didn't know about AIDS and evicting a drug user from a drug-free house isn't unreasonable. I suppose they could have waited until the morning but there's nothing she can do about it now.

It was codeine, not crack!

OK but what I meant was that it was a decision they made not knowing the full situation. It sounds like the poster has felt bad about it ever since.

I watched it all in one sitting. Stayed up til 2.30am and cried my eyes out. Great show! Couldn't stop thinking about it the next day too!

oh mookie is just taking pleasure at sticking the boot in to someone who clearly has carried this pain and guilt and regret for a very long time.

At the end I cried and sobbed I felt so depressed for a
Few days Yes for Colin and Ritchie and the loss of life of the boys
But more I empathised with Jill and the mums. For the female characters left behind who were heartbroken and devastated. They didn't judge and they nurtured abs cared and were also victims of the terrible illness

Given it was only 5 episodes, it covered a lot of ground. It was amazing.
T

If you need just a small taste of life for people who aren’t straight in 2021 just pop over to the extremely biphobic thread thats active in relationships right now.

Honestly I'm really fed up of this discussion about Jill. As a PP said she was portrayed as (and was actually based on) a hugely brave woman. She did those things, she cared about her community and gave her whole self to sit by peoples bed sides that were dying of a disease that people were terrified of at the time. She touched them and comforted them. More than most people were doing at the time. She showed them kindness and humanity and selflessness.

I'm as feminist as you get but this wasn't her story. If it had gone into her life and love interests it would have been totally irrelevant. RTD didn't disrespect women in this piece, he celebrated the work that a lot of people did that weren't themselves gay or as it was thought of at the time "at risk". I think Jill was an appreciative representation of those people.

I agree with every word @showmethegin.

@showmethegin

Honestly I'm really fed up of this discussion about Jill. As a PP said she was portrayed as (and was actually based on) a hugely brave woman. She did those things, she cared about her community and gave her whole self to sit by peoples bed sides that were dying of a disease that people were terrified of at the time. She touched them and comforted them. More than most people were doing at the time. She showed them kindness and humanity and selflessness.

I'm as feminist as you get but this wasn't her story. If it had gone into her life and love interests it would have been totally irrelevant. RTD didn't disrespect women in this piece, he celebrated the work that a lot of people did that weren't themselves gay or as it was thought of at the time "at risk". I think Jill was an appreciative representation of those people.

Hear hear! (Or is it here here?) Either way I agree with this totally.

On a lighter note, apparently the Phil Schofield reference was a coincidence

@showmethegin you are spot on!! Jill was one of my favourite characters. She was so strong and caring, even in the very beginning when she herself was scared and ignorant of how aids was contracted. She showed the humanity of the world, she wasn't just a weak female standing by. She did research, she worked on helplines, organised protests and marches. The scene were she sits with the dying man who has no one was utterly heartbreaking.
Collin's mum was another fabulous character. So non judgmental, just a mum who loved her son so much. The storyline wasn't about Jill's private life, it was about the support she gave to her best friends.

Just finished it. Absolutely adored it. Cried my eyes out. Devastated to see gorgeous Colin die, the sweet little man. I viewed a completely different Jill to a lot of you. I didn’t think she was flat, token or just a housewife. She was the strength, the intelligence in that house. Initially she just adored the guys free spirits and the fun they had. Then once she realised how serious AIDS was she worked so hard researching and campaigning. And ditto for being there at the end on the Isle of Wight. She was just so strong. And she probably did mean what she said to his mum. Who deserved a bloody jolt. I was as shocked he even went with his mum and dad to die. I thought he’d stay in a London. As for his mum, she lashed out at everyone to try and avoid having to face the truth. She didn’t even want to face that he was dying. His dad was impressive in how he took it. All in all a marvellous series.

(and I remember two gay friends in the late 90s having to have “you’ve been picked at random” aids tests to get a mortgage- so no wonder Richie lied about that.)

@CaptainMyCaptain

That's harsh *@Mookie81* they didn't know about AIDS and evicting a drug user from a drug-free house isn't unreasonable. I suppose they could have waited until the morning but there's nothing she can do about it now.

All they knew was that he was taking painkillers due to a physical ailment-absolutely no excuse to kick him out on the streets.

@Helmetbymidnight

oh mookie is just taking pleasure at sticking the boot in to someone who clearly has carried this pain and guilt and regret for a very long time.

There's no pleasure in my post- I feel desperately sad for the poor man slung out of his home. Don't post a story like that and not expect people to be horrified.