White House Farm - The Bamber Murders. Jan 8th ITV 9pm

[Dogleg]

Is anyone else planning to watch this six part series? I vaguely remembered the killings and on seeing this advertised have now lost hours to reading up about it online and have also downloaded a book about the case. I’m really looking forward to this one!

www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-12-25/itv-drama-white-house-farm/

I think it's entirely possible that JM didn't believe he would ever act on any suggestion he made of murdering his family. So to blame her for not informing the police seems a bit harsh.
The way she is portrayed in the drama it looks like she's a rabbit caught in the headlights, the bright glare of his narcissistic, manipulative, controlling personality.
I watched the programme about the disappearance of Margaret Fleming recently and the woman co-defendant (sorry can't remember her name) had a similar almost hypnotised demeanour.

JB confided in his girlfriend that he had committed murder and less than one month later he dumped her. I don't buy it. The police found an angle to scare JM to put pressure on her to change her statement because they didn't have enough on JB without it.

Also, look how JB has been manipulating people for years with his fantasies - women wanting to marry him, countless people queueing up to back his release etc. he’s obviously a very charming and convincing individual
I find those people fascinating. Unless you were researching a book or article, what would make you write to him? Or any convicted murderer.

She stands by her statement though Apple. And initially she told police it was a hitman as that’s what JB had told her.

The interview transcripts. for both JM and JB are around on the internet as I’ve read them in the past. I couldn’t tell you where though but think it was on the Miscarriage of Justice forum.

You are right though...without JM they had a much lesser case. Some circumstantial stuff but not enough for a conviction I wouldn’t have thought.

JB had also told others that he hated his family and wanted them dead. They also gave evidence at the trial but JM was the star witness and you are right to feel some disquiet about that regardless of whether you believe in his guilt or not.

I've tried to find transcripts DuckWillow. They are listed on the miscarriage of justice website but the links don't work. Unless you have to be a member?

I found the 2002 appeal court document but apparently that's not good enough.

So what if she believed a hitman did it? and she would have to be pretty bloody dopey to do so

It's still a crime to withhold evidence about that isn't it?

Coerced, in his thrall, invaluable witness, whatever she was ... why wasn't she prosecuted? It's pretty stunning. I didn't think we relied on very dodgy plea bargaining in this country.

I agree Chic, I don’t know why she wasn’t charged with withholding evidence. However I do think that Apple is correct about JM’s statement being crucial. So she was told that she wouldn’t be charged if she gave evidence (I think).

JM’s friends seem to think that JM ndukged in some risky behaviours with JB that she wouldn’t have done alone. Whoever mentioned Maxine Carr has a point. ...another woman who put her reputation on the line for a man who turned out to be worthless. How many other women take similar risks but with less issues than Carr and Mugford?

So much to think about.

Maybe she was offered immunity from prosecution if she testified.

But she couldn’t really have been prosecuted with a crime as such could she?JM I mean. Just because she didn’t go to the Police sooner was a mistake, but that’s not a crime in itself. Unless she lied to the Police about JB, such as a false alibi. Her defence would be that she initially didn’t believe JB would actually go though with it and after he actually did, she could claim she feared for her life.
Maybe she initially went to the Police after being dumped, then when they took it seriously she had to carry on with it and couldn’t back out?
Or maybe she knew JB had done it afterwards and felt guilty so went to the Police.
Why though did JB ring Julies flat on the night of the murder? ( at 3am) Knowing this would wake up get flatmates too, was this some sort or deliberate tactic? We will never know the actual content of what he said though.

As a PP said, it doesn't seem to be a crime. She didn't plan the murders, didn't know the details, didn't lie to the police.

Maybe JB called her to deliberately link her to what was happening. In the hope it would make her less likely to go to the police? Or maybe he just wanted to tell someone what he had done?

I am certain I couldn't love or live with anyone who had shot 5 people including 2 six year old boys whoever they were. But if, for some completely unimaginable reason, I did set off down that road but then change my story some time later - I would expect to get a gaol sentence for it.

But why? Loving and living with a criminal isn't a criminal offence, otherwise we'd have as many women's prisons as men's.

It's still a crime to withhold evidence about that isn't it?

But what crime? It's not perverting the course of justice, because that requires a positive act, not an omission to act.

That's interesting. You can't be charged with withholding evidence in a major crime investigation? I never knew!

I've tried to find further information regarding JM's police interviews. I could only find a statistic cited by a JB supporter but they put the number of interviews between JM and the police at 32.

On the miscarriage of justice website (mainly anti JB) there is a thread about JM's diaries with copies of the handwritten pages. She was asked to go back and fill in the diary after the event (by the police?) in which on the page for 6th Aug she lists how many times the victims were shot. She also details life after the murders and her 'thoughts' on those days (which were presumably also written some time later). I wonder if she was alone when she back-dated this diary.

All of the entries are strange, including the 'notes' she wrote at the front of the diary, almost like she was writing a list of things to remember correctly. It reads like she's giving herself an alibi and getting her story straight for the interviews.

Very strange whichever side of the fence you are on.

Iirc hearsay isn't evidence. She had no proof. She apparently got details wrong eg number of shots, where they were shot, who shot them (she said a hitman).

What her statement seems to have done is lead to other interviews where people unconnected to the family, who had nothing to gain, said JB had mentioned if his family all died at WHF, he'd inherit everything.

Plus she confirmed the window could be opened from the outside - which JB later confirmed he knew and that he'd used it to access the house. She also confirmed the caravan burglary story - which JB then admitted.

So even if you disregard everything JM said. JB confirming that he broke into his family business spoke to his attitude to money and family. JB confirming he had used the bathroom window to access the house, meant the murderer didn't need to be one of the people dead in the house.

It does make you wonder about nature versus nurture in relation to adopted children.

There is a TV documentary called ‘taken at birth’ where mothers were told their babies had died and the doctor secretly adopted them out.

One man was given to a family who beat him and essentially used him as the family slave. He was such a broken man in the documentary, scared of his own shadow. It could have been a different story if instead of fear he experienced hatred.

Yy I don't agree with a PP that June and Nevill were unlucky with the DCs they adopted. I think how they parented and the fact the children were adopted, had a massive impact on Sheila and JB.

Bringing outsiders(adopted DCs) into a close-knit community and extended family; not allowing them to attend local schools, etc. They may have been loving parents. Everyone seems to say Nevill in particular was an excellent parent but they didn't seem to put much thought into how to integrate the DCs into the community and the wider family.

JB's real parents marrying and having other DCs must have impacted on him too. And I wonder if he was jealous of Sheila building a relationship with her birth mum.

I don't agree with a PP that June and Nevill were unlucky with the DCs they adopted

I think MN have deleted that message now.

Have been watching this.
Thoughts the phone was moved.
The dad had his jaw shot, he could not have spoken.
For someone to kill children in a bed, that speaks of very strong anger.
The silencer had blood from the victim, how did it get back in the cupboard.
It had to have been on the gun or the shots would have woken other family members.
The mark on the fireplace, the dad was stronger than his daughter, lots of shots again anger.
The sister had perfect nails, in all the fighting, the reloading of the gun , twice and shootings, her nails remained perfect.

I think the circumstances around the murders are fascinating. This series, however, is not. I think it is a stretch to have six episodes and I ditched the last one partway through. Given that we won't (ever) get the answers

I agree mum2jakie it would have been better as a 2 or 3 parter. I'm finding some of the acting a bit 'wet'.

The series has definitely been stretched out, they could have done it in four episodes easily.

Neville and June had apparently both voiced worry over some kind of situation within the family shortly before the shootings. Neville told his secretary that “he wouldn’t be surprised if there was an accident soon, involving guns” (indicating that he would die) and a relation of June’s mentioned she had been very distracted and agitated when tending her sick mother saying “you have no idea of the worries I have mother” which was very out of character for her. Also sheila wrote in her diary the day of or day before the shootings “I’m sorry now for being mean to Jeremy”. He later claimed he had no idea what she meant. I think she also told Colin Caffell that JB scared her.
It makes you wonder what the hell was going on within that family.

Yy it definitely seems as though there was an issue brewing and even though there were people there all the time from staff to family, no-one else seems to know what it was about.

Without a proper forensic record it's probably not possible to know but is it possible that the children, June and Neville were killed earlier and Sheila later as it has been said her blood was still wet? I know her tox came back as marijuana and an anti psychotic but could she have taken a sleeping pill? Sorry clutching at straws.
I wonder what happened that evening when JB said he got the rifle to shoot rabbits. An argument?