White House Farm - The Bamber Murders. Jan 8th ITV 9pm

[Dogleg]

Is anyone else planning to watch this six part series? I vaguely remembered the killings and on seeing this advertised have now lost hours to reading up about it online and have also downloaded a book about the case. I’m really looking forward to this one!

www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-12-25/itv-drama-white-house-farm/

Apple you can go back and read my posts. They're still there with the explanation for my suggestion. What I haven't done is call out a single poster and try to instigate a pile-on which is what you seem to be doing atm. I've interacted with all posters in good faith and been open about my opinions and thought processes at all times. I've also pointed to references I've used so posters can check that I'm not just making stuff up.

JB cannot admit his guilt for a chance of parole. Maybe if it was one person he murdered, but not five, including two young children.
That’s why he’ll continue to protest. He has nothing to lose.
I think if anything, he would go on the never to be released list if he admitted his guilt. Very few prisoners are on that list in the UK.

Sorry to be dim but want phone calls were proven? So we had the alleged phone call from Neville Bamber to Jeremy from the farm. Then we had the phone call to the police station from Jeremy calling for Police assistance. We know the call to the Police station was made.
He also according to Julie his then girlfriend, rang her at about 3am saying there is trouble at the farm.
This was confirmed, I believe because it also woke her flat mates up who were white cross at the time of the call.
Isn’t it the phone call from WHF that’s questionable?

Or maybe the two jurors who found JB not guilty, having been in court and heard the evidence first hand simply felt that he was actually not guilty.

Jurors don't have to believe someone is not guilty in order to acquit. They simply have not to be satisfied that guilt is proved beyond reasonable doubt.

One poster was told 'why don't you start a thread about your campaign for Jeremy?'

Why keep banging on about that, whilst failing to mention that at least one poster has stated their express disagreement, and it was three weeks ago since when the thread has proceeded with people of all shades of opinion giving their views? Until very recently this has been a reasonably civilised discussion in MN terms.

Jurors don't have to believe someone is not guilty in order to acquit. They simply have not to be satisfied that guilt is proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Well maybe that’s what they believed then.

I too can’t believe JM wasn’t charged. If what she says is true, and JB specifically told her he was going to kill his family on that night she could have potentially saved 5 lives by speaking up. She does strike me as someone who is also a little bit unhinged. I don’t think she would have told anyone if Jeremy hadn’t dumped and humiliated her.

I haven't read the interview JM gave at the time because I think it's morally questionable that she profited from the murders But I wonder if it sheds any light on her and their relationship. Does it come across as a toxic relationship, a co-dependent one or an abusive one? It's difficult to get a sense of her and her motivation in the series.

But I keep coming back to the fact that the friends she told didn't go to the police either. Were they all morally dubious? Or were they a group of fantasists who didn't really believe anything each other said?

A pile on? Don't make me laugh.

I don't think I understand the silencer really

So it was used ? Then made to look like it wasn't by hiding it? Then found later with blood from Sheila and a cousin?

Is JB the only family suspect? Couldn't have been a cousin? I think the hitman is prob the best theory - would explain the movement seen as well

I think JM was in a dreadful situation, She heard JB openly talking about how much he hated his family and wanted them dead. She heard him talk about killing them and thought it was all talk....until it happened. JB then tells her it was a hitman and that if she goes to the police she will be seen as an accomplice as he had told her he was going to do it.

She can’t have known if she was coming or going with it all.

Maybe she feared she would be implicated in the murders because of JB’s previous comments.

I just don’t know...none of us do. All we can say is that her behaviour in protecting him initially was odd for reasons unknown (I suspect the above though) .

I’m as happy as I can be that JB is guilty as charged but I’ve read extensively about the case using original documents where they are available. Carol Ann Lee saw even more as Essex Police (I think) shared stuff with her that’s not in the public domain.

I also think JB has buried his guilt very deeply to the extent he now believes in his innocence. When something occurred a lifetime ago then it must be easy to distance yourself from it with time. Especially if you felt no guilt in the first place.

From what I’ve read Nouef the police officer who thought he saw movement initially said he realised almost immediately it was a trick of the light and there was no movement. The place was surrounded by police at that stage so no hitman would have got out.
In addition BT were regularly listening in via the open line and heard nothing except the dog barking.

noeuf - it wasn’t a hitman:
If it was then JB would’ve made sure to have a concrete alibi for starters.
The guy JM said that JB had hired had a concrete alibi.
I seriously doubt a hitman would kill two kids at close range. Such an evil crime was surely one that was very personal.
Re the movement - the policeman Later then said it was a trick of the light. Also, don’t forget there was a dog loose inside the house.

It can’t have been a cousin because JB made the claim that Neville called him to say “sheila was going berserk with a gun”. So if he’s telling the truth it can’t have been a cousin. If he was lying then it can only be him.

Based on all we know I really can’t believe that anyone thinks JB is innocent!

I also think JB has buried his guilt very deeply to the extent he now believes in his innocence

I absolutely believe this. He is a deluded and very narcissistic individual. The fact he continues to claim (and seemingly believe) he is innocent after all these years must be a baffling and scary thing for his psychologists/police involved in the case etc. No wonder they want to make sure he never gets out!

Do you know he was dropped on his head by June as a baby and suffered a fractured skull? I know it may have no relevance but it does make you wonder!

She does strike me as someone who is also a little bit unhinged.

Based on what I've seen in the TV series anyone who was attracted to JB, the way he's been portrayed regardless of the murders, would I think be unhinged.

Is the Aussie mate of his a real life person?

I too can’t believe JM wasn’t charged. If what she says is true, and JB specifically told her he was going to kill his family on that night she could have potentially saved 5 lives by speaking up

I'm no expert, but I can't think of any offence that would fit on the basis of the evidence. There has never been any suggestion that she aided and abetted or conspired with him before the event. Keeping quiet is not in itself an offence; something like perverting the course of justice, as I understand it, requires something like actively lying and providing an alibi, or destroying evidence, and it's a basic principle in English law that simply omitting to act isn't a crime unless there is a positive duty to do something.

Lots of people say things, it doesn’t mean they will carry them out. I’ve no issue that she didn’t speak up before. But after? She absolutely should have done. Possible coercive control?

@UntamedWisteria - Brett Collins was/is real and I think a Kiwi actually IIRC from a recent article.

As I said earlier - I think JM kept her mouth shut at first partly because she would profit too. I think when the police went along with the story of it being murder/suicide it was probably easy for her to convince herself that’s what happened. She probably blocked out the rest, but then as more time passed and the enormity of the situation weighed on her it became too much. She loved him and was probably a bit infatuated (I’m not being mean but JM was quite a plain girl and JM was a very good-looking young man) when he dumped her she had nothing to lose anymore.

I really think she was in denial. You can tell yourself “how could she stay with him knowing what he’d done?” but let’s not forget she didn’t really KNOW he’d done it. She wasn’t there on the night. He made ambiguous statements “it’s all going well” etc. He’d told her his plan was to hire a hitman. Then when it happened it looked like sheila had done it. At no point did JM say that JB said to her “it was me, I did it”. He was vague with details, deliberately misinforming her.
Also, look how JB has been manipulating people for years with his fantasies - women wanting to marry him, countless people queueing up to back his release etc. he’s obviously a very charming and convincing individual.

I’m not defending JM - I’m just saying who knows how we would act if the one we loved did something similar? Y

How else would a hitman kill two kids if not at close range? Asleep and efficiently killed is surely more professional than shot at from a distance possibly injured and then awake and terrified.

talk about being unlucky with your adopted kids

It's more likely that the mother's mental illness affected the children and not the other way round.

I am certain I couldn't love or live with anyone who had shot 5 people including 2 six year old boys whoever they were.

But if, for some completely unimaginable reason, I did set off down that road but then change my story some time later - I would expect to get a gaol sentence for it.

I just mean do you think it’s realistic that an unconnected person (ie. some random person JB has just paid to do it) would kill 3 adults and 2 kids for 2 grand? And shoot them several times up,close and personal at point blank range? In the Kent countryside in the 80’s? Then escape out the back door with the police outside? And JB has never mentioned or admitted to this?

Or is it more likely that JB came up with the story to dilute things should JM decide to go to the police at a later date? And/or just used as another idea in a “brainstorming” session with JM like the one That involved drugging his family and setting the farm alight? Until she pointed out that his beloved WHF would then burn down too?

I think JB quickly realised his plan of a hitman was flawed too (would you go around local pubs asking if anyone fancied taking out your family?) Nah - it was a fantasy.

But if, for some completely unimaginable reason, I did set off down that road but then change my story some time later - I would expect to get a gaol sentence for it

The police needed her though, she was their star witness. Everything hinged on her.