White House Farm - The Bamber Murders. Jan 8th ITV 9pm

[Dogleg]

Is anyone else planning to watch this six part series? I vaguely remembered the killings and on seeing this advertised have now lost hours to reading up about it online and have also downloaded a book about the case. I’m really looking forward to this one!

www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-12-25/itv-drama-white-house-farm/

@JediJim that's a good question. Colin Caffell addresses it in his book. And n fact he did express disbelief but because he was told the bald facts he accepted what he was told while thinking it sounded very out of character.

He began to question it more due to Jeremy's behaviour and the family saying that Sheila didn't know how to load a gun.

Initially though he believed there were only five bullets used in the murders. Once he discovered there were in fact 25 bullets he says he knew that no way could Sheila have done it. She didn't know how to load a gun.

Interestingly he also sees Jeremy as a victim in some ways and explores this a bit in his book . He thinks we could all capable of mass murder in the right circumstances. He explores what lead Jeremy to this and its an interesting read. He's done huge amounts of grief work with Kubler-Ross though and credits this with giving him the tools to try and understand Jeremy.

@DuckWillow I can't decide whether to read Colin's book or not. I read reviews that said it was very upsetting. Is it?

@JediJim iirc the exchanges didn't work the same way so BT couldn't prove what calls were made or where calls came from. There's no way to prove or disprove JB's claim that his father called him. The phone in the farmhouse kitchen was left off the hook but I don't think they used the redial button to see what number it had called last. (Although if JB was setting that as his alibi then presumably he would have rung his cottage from the farm, then left the phone off the hook before leaving the farm through the window).

Also, JB was what appears to be an intelligent guy. Why would he leave the silencer in the house? Why wouldn’t he have disposed of it somehow, he had lots of land to do this

I still don’t understand why he didn’t leave it by sheila’s side.
surely he wanted to either a)make it look like she had used the silencer to shoot everyone else and then taken it off to shoot herself.
Or b) he used it and then took it home to dispose of (maybe not thinking the police would wonder about the silencer ) then when they raised the question he had to put it back in the house.
Surely that would’ve been the sensible thing to do? I was lay in bed last night mulling over it! I wonder if maybe he put it in his pocket while he finished her off meaning to put it next to her and then in a panic forgot and took it back to his cottage by mistake? (
Then he would’ve had to plant it back in the house later on when the ”where is the silencer”? Question came up.

I thought there was no record of a call from Neville? In the programme only JB calls the local police station?

Maybe he didn't leave it beside Sheila because she didn't know how to attach or remove a silencer? (Thanks BitOfFun for the extract about the silencer above).

It seems it was important to JB that people thought the gun was used without the silencer. Maybe because if Sheila went mad during an argument, she wouldn't care about people hearing the gun. But if someone crept in to shoot them whilst they slept, they'd want to use the silencer so they didn't wake the others.

ShesGot yy there's no record of Nevill calling the station. I was talking about JB's claim that Nevill called him and said Sheila was going mad with a gun. There's no way to prove or disprove it. Although evidence suggests it didn't happen from how quickly JB could call the police, to the lack of blood, to Nevill being unable to speak after the first four shots upstairs.

Yes, that’s what I think lord but you would think he might have considered the neighbours hearing gunshots (or indeed not hearing them) if sheila’s supposed to have gone on a rampage without it?
The police apparently told all the neighbours to stay indoors when they went to WHf on the night so presumably they were close enough to hear gunshots? The sensible thing would’ve been to use the silencer then lay it next to her - surely unscrewing it isn’t that difficult?
Instead I think he took it with a view to getting rid of it and then had to put it back when the question of the silencer was raised. (This would also explain why it was in such a bizarre place - he wanted it to look like the police could quite easily have overlooked it)
Maybe were all giving him credit for being cleverer than he actually is. He did fail all his exams after all!

I have no clue about guns so don't know how difficult it is to remove a silencer! I did wonder why he took off the sight as apparently they usually kept it on because it was difficult to remove. Why didn't he just leave it on the gun but not use it?
I don't think JB is that clever. I think he's manipulative and ruthless, and quite often, that can look like cleverness.

@LordOfTheWhys I’m finding Colin Caffell’s book actually very good. I’m about 75% of the way through it.

He explores a lot about his grief but also looks into stuff such as meeting with Betty Shine (a medium), dreams, the drawings his children did shortly before they died (interpretation about whether on some subconscious level they knew they were doing to die) etc. Some of it is a bit woo for me but losing two children in this way must make you want to explore many things you might not otherwise do.

I am finding that he seems to be a creative person who explores things with an open mind taking insights from various experiences to help him make sense of his own grief and understand other people’s experiences. In many ways I am finding his book more interesting than the Carol Ann Lee “White House Farm” book although that is well researched and factual.

He certainly seems a better and more rounded person than the wider Bamber family. I gather they more or less shunned him after the trial. In his book he says “more than anything this said “you are not one of us”.” Despite the fact that the twins were family and he was their father.

That's interesting Duck. I did wonder, at the very beginning when suspicion hadn't turned to JB yet, if the wider family's attitude to him was based on upset that someone who 'wasn't one of them' (because he was adopted) was going to inherit. Perhaps Sheila being adopted meant Colin was seen as an outsider too.

It's odd the case didn't attract more psychics. There seemed to be a lot of them about in the 1980's and you'd have thought such a high profile case would have had them pouring in with readings.

I'm reading something lighthearted just now but I might try Colin's book later.

I think the fact that JB insisted on cremation makes it seem like he had something to hide.
The mother was a very devout Christian and as such would have been wanted to be buried in the churchyard and not cremated. To go against her wishes and something so important to her faith is just dreadful.
He must have had something to hide.

Yes JB being so intent on cremating the bodies is suspicious. Column Caffell said he was acting strangely after the funeral, like saying what he wanted to do to his girlfriend, in a gross sexual way. This in front of Colin.
I think JB was a weirdo and his girlfriend at the time was odd to. Very strange people, she should count herself lucky that she got away lightly after JBs conviction.
Colin is also convinced that JB was guilty, bearing in mind that he knew the family and is the only person around involved in the case.
So evil that JB ( if he did do it) decided to kill the boys too, surely that wasn’t necessary.

Sorry to repeat this ,but surely the phone calls are a critical point of defence to JB if this was true. If his father did call JB from the farm house and was proven, and JB phoned the police station expressing his concerns from his own house, then that would be his solid alibi right?
It wasn’t possible to travel from WHF to JBs house in that quick time, presuming he made both calls.
Or playing devils advocate, surely not using the phone at all could have been better for JB if he was guilty. I mean he didn’t have to bring phone calls into it, he could have waited for someone to come across the dead family, thus the police then getting involved. What was his alibi just out of curiosity, was he living alone?

There was no call from his father though?

But I agree why not just wait and “discover” the bodies the next day? Why have phone calls at all? Maybe because he didn’t have a proper alibi I.e. being with his girlfriend so he needed the phone call from his house to be his alibi, basically planting the story that sheila had gone crazy. He must have sprinted there and got cleaned up (wasn’t his cottage only a mile away? Would only take 5 mins on a bike?) Before ringing Them.

Yes I believe he was alone. His “alibi” was the phone call made from his own house. Correct me if I’m wrong!

His (JB) downfall is that he has tried to be too clever. The thought of him taking a few hours to stage the crime scene after the murders is quite chilling. Twenty five bullets used for five murders at very close range. How ham fisted was that ? I don't think he was expecting his father to stagger downstairs to try and use the telephone, either, before he died.

I don't think his father phoned Jeremy that night. I also believe JB phoned the local Police i.e. not 999 as a delaying tactic. I understand he drove slowly with the police to the farm which is uncharacteristic.

Why was he, 'playing for time' once he had called the Police ?

I've always wondered how come the silencer was found at the house 2 days later. Was it not in the farmhouse during the Police search ? I suspect not.....

It wasn't hidden in the house. It was just in a cupboard. Was that the cupboard that it would have been kept in normally ?

I don't think his father phoned Jeremy that night

Ignore this.

I just can't help but wonder how long did JB spend planning to do it ? Did he change those plans once they were all dead ?

Did he realise that he had made mistakes or was coming unstuck when the Police investigation turned to him as the prime suspect ?

But didn’t he do that purposely (25 shots) to make it look like sheila was “going berserk”? I.e. someone going crazy in a schizophrenic attack would be more likely to shoot like that than calmly shooting each person once.

And yes I reckon he put the silencer in the cupboard after the house had been searched when police were questioning where it was. I think he took it to either bury it or put it in his pocket and forgot to leave it next to sheila. He’d have been rushing to get back to his own place and call the police.

Well, I Googled guns and silencers. Apparently some are quite difficult to put on properly because you have to line them up a certain way, and twist them on the correct thread. If you do it wrong, it can cause damage to the gun. Maybe then, the silencer was taken away because if he'd left it, people would have said Sheila didn't know how to put a silencer on or how to take it off.
JediJim the assumption is that he killed the boys so he didn't have to share his inheritance. If the boys had lived, they'd have inherited Sheila's share. JB also told Julie (allegedly) that the boys would grow up to be mad because Sheila was and JB said he thought the boys were a millstone round Colin's neck. Although Colin didn't feel the boys were a millstone at all.

A hitman wouldn’t fire 25 shots, and would have needed paying, obviously JB never would have ever got the inheritance needed to pay them in that scenario. So a gut man probably wouldn’t have ever been paid in full, but I’m doubtful that was the case.
Even in 1985 I would have assumed that BT could have traced a call to see if a phone call was made from WHF to JBs house. Presuming that happened. If it wasn’t recorded by BT, surely the Police would put it down to a lie.

Did Julie have an alibi?

Did Julie have an alibi?

Yes she was in London and shared a flat. Everyone including Julie was home. Jeremy phoned her around 3am (arguments exist about the actual time) to say “all going well, there’s trouble at the farm”.

Julie’s flat mates were less than impressed about his callas he woke them all up.

Again, couldn’t BT have logged the call to from JB to Julie in London? Wouldn’t that prove the time he phoned her atleast?

JB lived a bit more than a mile away. However the police were surprised that they beat him to the house by quite a while, the police were coming from Witham which is quite a bit further. In the podcast it's commented on as to why he waited or took so long to get there, especially if it was an episode they had dealt with before (the reasoning behind NB ringing JB and not 999)

I’ve just read the whole thread some very interesting theories, anyway just wanted to say Colin Caffell was on This Morning a couple of weeks ago in case anyone is interested, I’m not sure if you can still get it on catch up but if not you can google and see clips on YouTube etc. I think he was on on the 20th Jan . It was very interesting, he seems like such a lovely man.