White House Farm - The Bamber Murders. Jan 8th ITV 9pm

[Dogleg]

Is anyone else planning to watch this six part series? I vaguely remembered the killings and on seeing this advertised have now lost hours to reading up about it online and have also downloaded a book about the case. I’m really looking forward to this one!

www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-12-25/itv-drama-white-house-farm/

Before I gave up on house phones entirely, i used to play musical phones too - the sound was poor so I'd bring the slightly better upstairs phone down sporadically, or when xP was working nights I'd unplug the upstairs phone and use it downstairs for a while

Imo the most interesting part of the moving phones story is how JB reacted to it.

How did he react? I must have missed this.

I agree with Apple that it seems plausible that Neville could make the call before being shot and the shooting be complete before BT got on the line. I also think the silencer evidence has holes.

For me the most compelling evidence for Jeremys guilt is the complete lack of sign that Sheila has forced a gun, had any kind of struggle with Neville or been in the kitchen where Neville was shot and fought.

And has been pointed out, due to the phone call Jeremy made to the police, if it wasn't Sheila, it surely had to be him.

I don't think it's one of the safest convictions by any stretch but on balance it was most likely him.

*fired a gun, not forced a gun

Could it be as simple as NB called JB (at an earlier time - would that be recorded by BT?) because Sheila was threatening to shoot herself? By the time JB arrived Sheila had killed herself and JB took advantage of the situation (either with or without the silencer) to become the sole beneficiary? There was some suggestion that Sheila's body had been moved. Any evidence to rule out this scenario?

Spur of the moment is more believable than complicated plots.

I'm reading Carol Ann Lee's book at the moment and one bit that's really stuck out for me is that Stan and other police officers and the pathologist all noted the bottom of Sheila's feet were completely clean. There wasn't a speck of dirt or blood on them. Apparently she'd had a bath before bed but if she'd wrestled with her dad while shooting him in the head at point blank range there would've been blood all over her. Not to mention having to walk past her mum's body to lay down and kill herself. So that, plus the fact JB had motive, means and a shonky alibi, means I'm utterly convinced he's guilty.

Venus JB put out imo an ott statement about the phones. It was just one of those instances where his response seemed 'off'.

Personally, I think the phones, Julie, even the silencer are all distractions in a way. The only definite facts we have are: they all died in the house; JB made a call; Sheila wasn't an experienced shooter. JB had entered the house through a downstairs window at some time. Both sides agree on those facts.

Sheila could 'possibly' have shot herself but everyone agreed she wasn't a competent shooter. Armed police in the US, have a less than 50% hit rate in live situations. Whoever killed the people in the house only missed one shot out of 24 or 25 with three targets who were adult, alive and (for two of them) moving. That's someone who can handle a gun. That means it wasn't Sheila.

If JB hadn't made the phone call then there could have been an argument for any of the people who would inherit being responsible . But JB made the call, blamed Sheila, said he had left a gun out (although staff and family said even if JB had left a gun out, Nevill would have put it away because the twins were staying). JB also admitted he had entered the house through a downstairs window (incidentally he said he did that after the murders but the police were monitoring him and knew he wasn't anywhere near WHF on those dates). So JB had motive, opportunity and the shooting skills.

It all feels incomplete because we don't know the timings, the silencer, the order of the murders. But regardless of all those aspects, from the basics that we do know and aren't disputed by either side , it all points to JB.

But the statements that her feet were clean are very much contradicted by the photos shown here Daily Mail link.
I don't know what to make of this. Did everyone involved lie? Hard to believe. Are the photos fake? Carol Ann Lee iirc talks about there being retouched photos on the Internet but I don't know if she means this one.

I agree that Sheila's lack of experience with guns is a powerful piece of evidence against her doing it. Not so much the accuracy as it was all very close range but even if she knew how to reload you would think it would take her a while which would give Nevill an opportunity to fight back (I don't know - have never had any experience with guns - but as I understand it the jury were taken into a room where they were given an opportunity to try it out for themselves, so they were working from a position of experience on this one). And I agree re how unlikely it would be she would be so clean, feet aside, and show no signs of injury from a struggle, and if she removed bloodied clothes and washed where on earth did they go?

However it goes both ways - if it was Jeremy (or anyone else) how did they manage to persuade her to lie down nicely and let them shoot her without putting up any resistance?

I ought to step away from this before my head explodes really...

To me, the specks of the blood on the heel look faked and the other marks look like post-death mottling.

I just don't think Sheila had the mental or physical capability to beat up her dad (who was a stocky 6ft 3 to her willowy 5ft 7) while she fired off 25 shots at point blank range, which would've required re-loading and she didn't break a single nail. Then we're supposed to believe she shot herself once under the chin (which would allow for the blood inside the silencer), go back downstairs to hide the silencer, then go back upstairs to finish herself off. As for killing her sons too... Nope, I think it was definitely JB.

I know I’m late to the thread here (just caught up on On demand) but I’m so glad pp’s are thinking the same as me re Stephen Graham’s acting/accent. He bugs the hell out of me but usually all people can say is how fantastic an actor he is. All he’s done is shout at the top of his lungs in that terrible accent!
I love Mark addy in it though.

TheCountess I think someone could have overpowered her, pushed her down and shot her. For the second shot, she was already incapacitated. I always wondered why she was on that side of the bed but CAL's book explained there was a door there that ultimately led to the twins' room. If she'd been told there was no point going to the twins because they were already dead then I guess she could have collapsed or she might not have struggled because she'd been told everyone else was dead.

ShesGot yy I agree about Mark Addy. He's brilliant.

Stephen Graham is just Stephen Graham in everything I've seen him in, just this time with one of the worst accents since Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins. I don't get the love but know I'm in the minority.

Mark Addy on the other hand is always good value.

Fascinating thread. I'm pretty convinced JB did it. If he didn't he must rue the day he decided to cremate the adult bodies as I suspect they may have saved his bacon with modern forensic examination. The police investigation was a total shit show whatever, burning all that potential evidence and trampling all over the house. Truly shocking.

I ought to step away from this before my head explodes really...

Yes, I'm thinking exactly the same!

For every single seemingly valid point (ie clean feet) there is out there somewhere a seemingly equally valid counter argument (bloody, discarded socks)

Without proper crime scene photos these things are impossible to say either way. Feet can be washed. Hell, even nails could be re-polished!

The people who are most likely to know if SC could shoot a gun are all dead. You're left with trusting the word of family members who have ulterior motives.

And as anyone who has watched Making a Murderer on Netflix knows, once the police have screwed up they are also then tempted to cover up. Poor Brendan Dassey.

I think if Sheila did it she wouldn't have gone crazy with a gun (she didn't have a history of physically attacking people). I think she would have taken the gun JB conveniently left loaded and available (if he did) and shot them while asleep with the silencer before killing herself.

LordOfTheWhys
Thanks, that's v interesting re the door - CAL's detailed plan of the house is very good.

@Noeuf I'm not sure I agree with that. The problem is that we're trying to compare their behaviour to 'normal' behaviour. Even that of NB and whether he would dial 999.

Let's say you have a friend who calls you and declares they are going to kill themselves. You'd probably call the police. Now let's say they call you 3 times a day, saying the same, for 6 months. When do you stop calling the police? When do you start calling say, their brother instead? At what point does your behaviour become abnormal in dealing with your friend?

That's why I prefer facts (which are scarce here) because we can't project our feelings onto others leading very different lives.

How many times did a person in that family pick up a knife or gun and declare they were going to harm themselves? We have no way of knowing if this was unusual or standard behaviour for that family. All of them would have been damaged in some way either because they were suffering from a mental illness or had lived with someone with one.

Does anyone know if there was a history of 999 calls being made to the police over the years either in relation to Sheila or June?

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with? I'm not talking about the phone calls I'm just using my knowledge of mental illness (not health) to theorise that it was more likely that Sheila would kill them quietly and decisively rather than in a violent show down

more likely that Sheila would kill them quietly

I'm disagreeing with that part. It seems rational and premeditated and I think it more likely that that an argument could escalate to violence. Either Sheila harming herself and JB doing the rest or whatever,

burning all that potential evidence
fussy what I found interesting about the CAL book was the police said they kept lots of relevant parts of evidence eg some of the carpets were burnt but the parts that were bloodied were cut out and kept first. It wasn't quite a wholesale burning of evidence iyswim although obviously they did mess up other parts of the investigation.

Apple it's not just about nails being repainted, it's about them not being broken. As for saying the only ones who said SC couldn't shoot were family who were set to inherit, JB said SC hadn't shot that rifle before although maybe you were including JB since he was a family member who was set to inherit

LordOfTheWhys didn't JB say somewhere that he and Sheila used to go tin can shooting or something similar? (but yes, I was including JB as someone who couldn't be trusted!)

Presumably the police eventually disposed of all of the evidence? Does the CAL book say when that was?

Just slowly reading through the thread here....
Is it true that JB insisted on the bodies being cremated despite his parents wishes supposedly being to be buried? (As said by Anne Eaton in the programme?) if so, that’s highly dodgy isn’t it?
Also in the series it seems like JB has the say-so on the twins being cremated, why would that be? Surely that would be up to The dad?

And what’s the story with the Aussie friend? We’re they gay lovers or what? what about the bit where he patted JB’s crotch? The series seems to suggest he was in on it somehow.

apple

And as to the theory that The family may have been used to drama between the women and therefore that explaining NB making the call to JB instead of 999 - if that’s so surely JB would’ve just gone over there himself and not called the police? If NB truly thought that sheila had “gone berserk with a shotgun” he would’ve phoned 999 wouldn’t he? And if not, and this was a common occurrence, JB would’ve thought so too and dealt with it in the usual way (I.e. going round and calming sheila down?)

As far as I know though there was no suggestion that anything like that had occurred before, therefore I’m sure NB wouldn’t have been likely to call JB before the police?

if that’s so surely JB would’ve just gone over there himself and not called the police?

That's exactly what I'm saying could have happened! So NB rings JB and says your sister is threatening to kill herself etc. JB goes over there and sees it as an opportunity to pin it on Sheila (either she killed herself or he did everything) and then JB makes THE phone call himself before leaving and leaves the phone off the hook. I don't know how this works with the local telephone lines of the day and BT records.

We don't know what NB's usual method of dealing with SC and his wife was but as both of them had spent time in care presumably that meant someone at sometime at least called a doctor or an ambulance etc for help?

We only have JB's word that NB said Sheila was going berserk with a gun. He might just have said she needs calming down or that she's threatening to shoot herself. NB might not have been fearful for anyone else's safety at that point apart from Sheila's. JB could have been the one to attack NB.

I tried to screenshot my kindle, but I am pretty sure it will be too small to see, so I am relying the page verbatim, and you will just have to take my word that it's accurate.

Varying in length from long to very low no, Sheila's nails were real rather than synthetic. DC Bird recalls 'being in the studio with Ainsley and the technician, enlarging the mortuary photographs of her hands and fixing them to the walls for examination. Sheila's long nails were unbroken [3]. The original images show her scarlet nail polish only very slightly worn at the tips- not chipped- indicating that she had painted them some days earlier. The matching varnish has n her toenails has the same slight wearing.

This does not sound like a repaint job to me.