White House Farm - The Bamber Murders. Jan 8th ITV 9pm

[Dogleg]

Is anyone else planning to watch this six part series? I vaguely remembered the killings and on seeing this advertised have now lost hours to reading up about it online and have also downloaded a book about the case. I’m really looking forward to this one!

www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-12-25/itv-drama-white-house-farm/

According to the book, the gran - June's mum - lived here Vaulty Farm
When they eventually told her about the murders (when the police were still blaming Sheila) she changed her will within days. Prior to the murders, June and her sister Pamela (Ann's mum) were to inherit equally. After the murders that would have meant Jeremy getting Ann's share. But the gran changed her will so everything went to Pamela. There seems to have been a big focus on all sides about money and inheritances.
After Jeremy was convicted all of his mum and dad's land/money, etc went to Pamela too. But she gave Neville's to his family.

What strikes me about the gun silencer is the idea that the murderer would have hidden it so casually in the house. Why didn't they take it away and drop it in a pond or something? Although it was contaminated by other people's fingerprints etc, surely it was Sheila's blood inside it that made it a crucial piece of evidence. That doesn't smack of a professional job at all.

ChiChi there was an entire bit in the book about that. Apparently there was a broken tampon in the lounge and the uncle (or the cousins) thought it had been used to remove the rest of the blood from the silencer. (There was nothing to support that theory except it was the right size and they all said June wouldn't have let anyone leave a broken tampon lying around.)

The police thought that the silencer was left either because it would have been noticable if it disappeared or because the murderer didn't want to get caught with it that night. They thought the murderer might have planned to go back to dispose of it in the days that followed.

Can anyone point me to which podcast. There is hundreds on the they 🚶 among us and not labeled

If any of you have only read White House Farm then I recommend One of Your Own, Carol Ann Lees biography of Myra Hindley.
It's one of the best nonfiction I've ever read. Carol had a lot of support from the families and is still involved in the search for Keith Bennett.
Yet as the reader you are left really to draw your own conclusions about Hindley. The research is meticulous.

I have just read Carol Ann Lees' book on the White House Farms murders, and thought it was very good, so I'll try that next, thanks.

Has anyone read Colin Caffell's book? I was shocked at the letter he received from JB that was quoted in Carol Ann Lees' book. One of the few times were JB let his public facade slip.

I haven't read Caffell's book but I have read the letter. It's shockingly nasty, and to poor Colin who hadn't done anything to deserve it.
However it didn't change my view as to guilt or innocence. It's easy to take everything nasty Bamber ever does or says as proof of guilt but tbh if I had been banged up for a crime I didn't commit I would probably go through a phase of raging and hitting out at everyone. He would also (if innocent, which I am not assuming at all) be feeling deeply hurt and betrayed by Colin turning against him siding with the police and relatives, and the easiest way to deal with that is to tell yourself you hate the person anyway.
I think to some extent if he is innocent Bamber can't win - if he rages and shows anger it's evidence he was bad all along, if he is calm and unemotional he's a psychopath.

I have read the Scott Lomax book (biased in favour of innocence) and started the Carol Ann Lee one.

I found the letter surprising because (whether you think JB is innocent or not) JB has worked very hard on his public persona and is always very conscious of his campaign. Even from the moment he was arrested and wrote to Julie, he was careful in his correspondence. The Caffell letter is the only one I've seen where it wasn't written with one eye on public impact.

Can anyone point me to which podcast. There is hundreds on the they 🚶 among us and not labeled

The episodes relating to White House Farm are in Season 3 - episodes 42, 43 and 44. They're quite long but very informative and interesting.

The series is certainly making him look guilty and it appears that the lack of investigation by the police in the immediate aftermath may have destroyed or missed vital information. I'm not sure what I think - it's interesting that JB has refused to ever admit guilt even though had he done so he would almost certainly have been released years ago. If you believe he is guilty then you would have to conclude that he is after the money - in this case a huge sum of compensation - but then presumably he could also continue to work to clear his name from the outside. Just pondering what I would do if jailed for a crime I was wrongly convicted of - would I continue to protest my innocence even if it meant years and years in prison or would I admit to guilt and show contrition for an early release?

Lillian I thought that at first but I think because he was given a full-life tariff, even if he admitted his guilt, he'd still be in jail. He appealed to the ECHR about the unfairness of the whole life tariff and they said it did breach his human rights but the UK refused to commute it to a set period.
I wonder if they had changed the tariff to a set period eg twenty-five years, if JB would suddenly have admitted his guilt so he could be rehabilitated and released.
As long as he has a full-life tariff, there's no benefit to admitting guilt.

I thought if he admitted his guilt he would have a chance of being downgraded to a different category and thus get more privileges?

Putting emotions to one side for a moment, I don't think it's possible to decide who was guilty until we can be sure how reliable the evidence is that is being presented to us.

Fundamentally, we need to know was there a police cover up and what were they hiding?

Was it that someone within the farm could have survived had the police gone in sooner? Maybe they moved a body to perform cpr and then 'reconstructed' the scene to take the photos?

Are there important documents that are not being disclosed? Why?

If we found out that the police have a record of NB calling the police himself and they've withheld that log then that would be a huge deal.

They need to stop worrying about covering their own asses and tell people the truth so all these rumours can be cleared up!

The verdict was a 10-2 majority. I'd be interested to know what those 2 jurors based their decision on.

At stake is the tarnishing of an innocent woman's memory versus the lost life of an innocent young man. Both are tragic and it's sad we don't know which one is true.

Apple you only need to answer those questions if you think they have any merit. I understand why JB and his supporters want to question everything. It's the only way JB has any chance of freedom. But that doesn't mean those questions are credible. I don't think JB living in prison is in any way comparable to the loss Sheila experienced.

LordOfTheWhys I am not a JB supporter. I am also not a supporter of people making statements like 'oh I just know they would never do that'.

You can only ever know what is inside your own head. If you lose someone close to you by suicide you learn this lesson the hard way. So yes, I think there is merit in asking what are the real facts, not feelings. You can't let emotions cloud that, it helps no-one. It's not just this case but every legal case.

What's the point of the justice system if it's okay for the police not to disclose all the evidence? It's irrelevant who you support to believe that, surely?

Have the police said that they're withholding things then?

purpleme I'm reluctant to repeat things I've read elsewhere because I want to remain neutral and I don't know facts from misinformation because cases like these do get crazy followers.

That said, I saw a petition on change that had thousands of signatures asking for documents in this case to be released. There was also some suggestion that a crime number was reallocated to this case and all the docs on the original crime number not disclosed. I just think a lot of the conspiracy theories could be cleared up with more transparency.

Applejane, I am agreeing very much with all your recent posts.

Thank you TheCountess

It is in discussions like these that I am reminded of Jim Swire. Jim Swire lost his daughter in the Lockerbie bombing. He sat through all of the trial and was convinced that Megrahi was not responsible. It is not justice for families just to have loose ends tied up and someone in prison.

In this case I think there are multiple plausible scenarios but if JB is guilty it is more likely to be via a hitman so proper justice would be to prove that and have the hitman face justice too.

@AppleJane, the Carol Ann Lee's book clears up many of the points you raise, including the suspected mislabelling of evidence. I feel fairly certain that although the initial investigation was bungled due to DCI Jones's insistence of gathering evidence to support his theory, eventually a competent job was done, and they got the right person.

JB's original petition asked for certain documents which the senior officer said the defence had already received when JB was first charged. The police also provided them again in 2011 (one of the JB campaign websites acknowledges they received them in 2011).
The campaign group then started another petition.
There are further papers that JB claims have been withheld or lost but the police say didn't exist in the first place.
The police seem to admit some papers were incinerated but say JB's team had access to them prior to that. JB's team dispute it.
And there are some papers that are withheld because they concern other people.
JB has the call log that he says proves Neville called the police that night. The police dispute that's what it says. You can read it online and see whether you think it says the son called or the father called.

I found JB much more credible before I read his website and the logs he released.

If it was a hitman I still think Jeremy Bamber is culpable.

So many people had heard him say he hated his family and he his girlfriend he wanted the family dead.

Unfortunately he set up the narrative that Sheila had done it. There are multiple reasons why Sheila could not have done it...not least immaculate nails with a few days wear and not chipped.

Once it had been established Sheila could not have done it then automatically the police would have looked at why Jeremy told them the tales he did.

He denied all the hatred of his family bit so many people heard this that for it to be false would mean a massive conspiracy.

Colin Caffell’s book is proving good looking not so much at “did Jeremy do it” but also at “why he might have hated his family that much.”

Colin Caffell has no doubt of Jeremy’s guilt.

I think he’s guilty too but agree it could have been a hitman arranged by Jeremy. In fact he initially told his girlfriend that he’d arranged a hitman and named him.but the man he named had a solid alibi and couldn’t have done it.

@BitOfFun the problem I have with books is that inevitably you work your way through them and soon realise the author is biased. I followed the Meredith Kercher case and eventually gave up on books and turned to the court transcripts but again, having to rely on someone's interpretation when translating them into English!

@LordOfTheWhys I appreciate it is impossible to prove a negative such as producing a document that never existed! I would be concerned that withholding documents because they 'involve other people' or 'in the interests of national security' are terms that could be abused.

@DuckWillow that all sounds terrible but it's not evidence. Lots of unlikeable people get convicted (Barry George for Jill Dando's murder)

What would you all consider to be the main damning pieces of evidence in this case?

Are the court transcripts available online do you know?