CONTINUATION GAME OF THRONES. EPISODE 5 as at 15 May

[OneInAMillionYou]

welcome citizens of the Realm!

I will open the thread for Episode 6 on Sunday.

All discussion welcome. We post different views but respect each other's contributions.

No spoilers from elsewhere on the net, please.

CodenameVillanelle

Didn't he have a vision of a dragon/ shadow of a dragon flying over kings landing and the throne room destroyed? I may have imagined that though 🤔

@BlackCat I think George gave up being a screenwriter because he couldn’t stick to the deadlines.

@itswinetime I think George said the ending would be bittersweet.
I’ve read the spoilers for the finale and someone’s story concludes in a way I wasn’t expecting at all but it sounds really great and addresses some issues that people had with earlier seasons. It sounds like it may be a show exclusive ending as it has an element of fan service about it, but it’s the perfect bittersweet ending for that character IMO.
I do believe that this upcoming episode will be a lot better than the previous ones though, it’s just a crying shame it’s had to take such leaps to get there.

Yes he did!
I think his powers are not clearly delineated

By the way, is it true that GRRM used to write for the Twilight Zone? I think he’s such an amazing storyteller.

He was also one of the chief writers for that awful Beauty and the Beast series in the 1980/90s. He originally envisioned that Ron Perlman would be the ideal actor to play the Hound.

Interesting to think that he has worked with three actresses who have played Sarah Connor in the Terminator series...

I think a lot of the fandom are the equivalent of Dany at the moment. They’ve built up an image in their mind of what their ‘dream’ is and when it doesn’t turn out that way they spit their dummies out and burn it to the ground.

I cannot fathom why anyone thinks this is D&D’s ‘made up’ ending. They may be arrogant dicks, but they are not stupid. This was never going to be a satisfactory ending for a huge proportion of the fandom -whether delivered over 70 or 200 episodes. I don’t blame them for planning do go totally ‘off grid’ for the finale.

I loved that Beauty and the Beast series @SweetSummerchild (in my defence, I was very young!)

Love the analogy of some of the fandom being like Dany herself and spitting their dummies out

BrienneofTarthILoveYou I also loved Beauty and the Beast. Then again, I remember loving watching MacGyver at about the same time! Oh, television was glorious back then!

Bran doesn't see the future I don't think, only the past and the present
I think he, like Jojen Reed, can see snippets of the future, but they come to him as random, uncontrollable bursts that are probably pretty hard to decipher unlike his visions of the past.

This week I don't know what the fandom is saying, as I'm sure particularly now the internet is dark and full of spoilers, so have been avoiding most of it. Are people upset Dany burned KL full stop? I thought it was because there wasn't scenes prior of her going 'mad' or whatever?

I'm starting to think about her past and wondering if it was more for political gain than it looked it to be; if after she won the unsullied support, she realised that there could be potential to further herself and her following by freeing and taking slave cities and it wasn't really for her compassion or sympathies at all. It's plain to see she has a huge ego and the slave cities fall at her feet.

@sweetsummerchild I think it’s been confirmed by GRRM that the show ending and book ending are essentially the same, except for what happens with the secondary characters. So whatever happens to Dany and Jon will be the same as it will be in the books, but characters like Bronn and Podrick D&D get free rein over.

I disagree that most of the fandom would hate the ending regardless of what happened.

agirlhasnonameX I think you’re right. She freed the Unsullied in a bad faith deal to buy them to conquer Westeros. Does she ‘free’ them because she genuinely feels bad about their treatment or because she doesn’t want to fulfil her part of the deal and part with her dragon? I guess the author wants this to be ambiguous.

I’m finding it increasingly helpful to compare her story arc to the Hound’s. He saves Arya and protects her but it isn’t actually because he cares about her (I’m talking about the books now) but because he wants her as a ransom. Although he may be seen as ‘heroic’, his aims are always about revenge.

Does she ‘free’ them because she genuinely feels bad about their treatment or because she doesn’t want to fulfil her part of the deal
Yes this too, the very first time I seen this scene I loved it, then the more I have watched it over the years, the more it's started to feel self beneficial rather than heroic, even a little uncomfortable and manipulative.

It's sort of like evil people doing charity work to gain a popularity.

to the Hound’s. He saves Arya and protects her but it isn’t actually because he cares about her (I’m talking about the books now) but because he wants her as a ransom.

It was similar motivation for most of the TV series - it was why he took her and why he kept hold of her even fighting the Brotherhood Without Banners to do so.

It's only recently that it's become clear that during their journey a fragile bond of sorts had sprung up - Brienne and the Hound talking on way to big meeting in Kinds Landing was first sign – she left him for dead by then. The Night King fight at Winterfell showed it much more.

In the end though he could have offered to kill Cersi for her or left with her increasing chance her getting out of Kings Landing alive - he doesn't he talks her out of continuing yes but then goes on to get his vengeance. That’s not really heroic though it’s moved on from her just being a ransom item.

Having that time and that really long journey was great – I think it shows why suddenly zipping around the map is bad for the story arcs.

Her actions around the Unsullied do with time look more and more self-serving - she has their loyalty because she freed them but she hasn't really.

It’ possible she thought she was doing good at the time or told herself she was and has never really considered what's best for them since or wanted to give up the power they give her.

never really considered what's best for them since or wanted to give up the power they give her.
Yes, she 'freed' them because she needed them, she didn't free them and tell them to go and live happy peaceful life's, she banked on them backing her because 1) she had just freed them from the masters and 2) knows that they know no other life than to kill and take orders, perfect for her cause.
She does give them the option, but in quite a manipulative way.

Daenarys really does hate slavery in the books. She tries to stop the Dothraki from taking slaves and she wants to liberate slavers bay. But she fails, because she doesn't follow through. She's too focused on getting to Westeros to see it through. In the show the turned the failure into Tyrion's decision which was a shame.
She also uses the Dothraki who are violent slavers and rapists. She doesn't care about that.

Are people upset Dany burned KL full stop? I thought it was because there wasn't scenes prior of her going 'mad' or whatever?

I think it’s more about the way it was done than the ending from what I’ve read.

I think it’s more about the way it was done than the ending from what I’ve read.

Yes, and the fact that a massive proportion of the fandom are Dany fans.

Character development in the series has been off whack for several seasons. However, it didn’t matter when the character was Sansa in seasons 5-7 or Ellaria in season 6, or Littlefinger in season 7 as no one named their baby Petyr or Sansa.

Suddenly it’s a fan favourite and it’s more jarring. Suddenly it’s trending everywhere so everyone is joining in the bandwagon.

Rewatch season 7 episode 6 and tell me what about the episode made the least bit of sense. Very few were moaning about the series then, and those who did were considered ‘nitpicking’.

I think lots of people were hugely invested Dany fans - and bought into her being the saviour.

I hadn’t realised how widespread this was until the outpouring of rage that followed last week’s episode.

While it may have come on a bit suddenly, the signs were all there, right from the start.

Character development in the series has been off whack for several seasons. However, it didn’t matter when the character was Sansa in seasons 5-7 or Ellaria in season 6, or Littlefinger in season 7 as no one named their baby Petyr or Sansa.

I agree. The character development hasn’t been good for a while. Lots of characters just doing things because ‘plot says so’.

You can really tell they’ve just been given an outline and are heading from A to B in a lot of places.

I think lots of people were hugely invested Dany fans - and bought into her being the saviour.
This confuses me a lot though, as surely hugely invested GoT fans have realised by now this isn't a story about saviours. If it was it would be like countless other TV shows, movies and books. I would be gutted if Dani took the Throne and peace ensued and all was great...

Similarly, I'll be a little disappointed if Jon takes it, less so if he forfeits it to someone else. This is the only show I have ever watched that I haven't wanted a happy ending for, but I'm feeling increasingly alone on that viewpoint. GoT makes you sad and angry and disgusted and afraid, it shows the worst in human impulse and power, and that good doesn't always prevail over bad, like the real world. I don't want a good guy wins story end.

Saying that, if it happens I'm not gonna burn all my DVDs and start threatening to kill people 😂

I actually think the mad queen story is fine, its been obvious for a while that it was heading that way
I also think Cerseis death was fine, life isnt alway dramatic and meaningful, sometimes bad people just die in a normal way rather than being burned by a dragon.

I do however think that Jamies sudden about turn was a bit pants. i kind of understand he will always have a connection to cersei but why have him leave her in kingslanding to then run back to her? i feel like his redemption arc was for nothing.

This confuses me a lot though, as surely hugely invested GoT fans have realised by now this isn't a story about saviours.

You’d think, right?

What’s becoming clear to me though is that you can be a superfan and really love it without engaging with the complexity of it.

All things to all men I guess.

I do however think that Jamies sudden about turn was a bit pants.

This was the bit I was most disappointed in.

However, I’m willing to believe that this is the direction George was planning to take him in, but he would have executed it much much better.

I agree about Jamie - and I loved the scene with Tyrion and I agree he may well have always been heading back to Cersi but it felt rushed.

There should have been more of a build up to him leaving Winterfell and then having doubts on the jorney back - it did feel very bullet pointy - he need to be here then there etc then die. Though I thought the actors did a good job with what they had.

Personally, I did not like the Jaime and Brienne get together. Although throughout the series, there was a connection between them, which seemed real, their sex scene did not. I think a chaste kiss might have worked better, unless she is expected to end up pregnant.
And her silly sobbing when Jaime left, was sooooo out of character. She would have shown the ‘stiff upper lip’ to Jaime, but we the audience would have seen her despair.
Like others, I hoped Jaime realised he could have had another life, and his intention was to kill Cersei, but this did not happen. So what heppened to the prophecy of Cersei being killed by her younger brother?
I never liked Dany, and to me she definitely showed signs of madness, from earlier seasons. What is the point of the throne if everyone is dead? Also, I thought she could not have any real children (except dragons), so she would not herald a dynasty. Maybe I have gone wrong somewhere.