Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson and Me

[SachaStark]

Anybody else planning to watch tonight? Part 1 of 2, 9pm, Channel 4.

I'm very intrigued to watch. I remember the Martin Bashir documentary being aired years ago, and the various backlashes/criticisms that happened afterwards.

@teatimez - It is not disputed he slept in the same bed at times with kids. He didn't just have these sleepovers with young kids for the record, in the balance of fairness.

I can't explain it. It is something that they all consented too (wrongly IMO). I wouldn't do it and would not let me kids do the same. Sorry I cannot help there and I am not defending it.

However there is a big difference, between sleeping, playing games, watching movies etc and sexual abuse. That isn't a fact and what is being disputed here.

Yes it was ill advised, massively. But I don't believe that what these two say happened how it did. People say they can't be acting that well, but you are talking about two actors (Wade more and overall entertainer, but he's done acting).

People keep comparing this to the Jimmy Saville case, but that was in different in the sense that the victims came forward didn't know each other and couldn't possibly know what the others had said. That is completely different to people who know each other, had 5 years to make their stories match. On top of that they also had the benefit of knowing what the other alleged victims had said MJ had done to them. Not the same at all.

@ccmrob12 what do you think Michael was doing with these boys when they slept together in the same room? As far as I'm aware, the fact they did stay in the same room together, with no-one else there is not disputed.

Also, what reason can you give for the parents (sorry, forget which boy it was) saying that their bedroom got further and further away from MJ's when they were on tour, to the point where they were on separate floor?

X post on the first question, sorry.

"None of us know for sure."

I think that sane people know that deep down a grown powerful, rich celebrity with the best lawyers money can buy sleeping night after night in the same room as young vulnerable boys is just so so wrong.

There can be nothing good of it for the young boys. Nothing.

Teaching them to blur their boundaries.
Having neverland as enticing as Hansel and Gretels house.

The circumstantial evidence is there.

There are multiple victims.

for all the other abuse victims who have shared their stories on here.

It must be a good thing that this issue is being aired publicly now.

Louis Theroux made a good point in his Good Morning interview. He says there’s a standard of behaviour that we should hold people to that’s better than ‘not criminal’. ‘Not criminal’ is not good enough.

Very good article in today's Observer by Dan Reed: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/10/dan-reed-shocked-those-wont-accept-michael-jackson-abuser

ccmrob12

I wouldn’t say you’re deluded but your posts come across as very naive. I hope to god you are never in a position where you are being asked to believe someone you love.

@PuddingsAreMyJam - I don't know I wasn't there. But the testimonies of the people that were said they played games, eat sweets and popcorn, watched films and just acted like kids. That's from parents and others who were there. What happened when it was just him and one other I don't know, only the people in the room know.

As for the room moving, again I don't know. Wasn't there. But surely if the abuse happened with his mum in the next room, it wouldn't matter where they were right? Next door or two floors down, that wouldn't have stopped him. So it's a moot point to me in trying to understand if it had any bearing or not.

Look at both sides by all means by to ignore everything on one part and to then tear apart every single thing about Michael that isn't majorly abnormal, is not on and just breeds ridiculous speculation

We are looking at both sides!

One side is five boys have claimed that the same man sexually abused them, with stories that ring true for every survivor of childhood sexual abuse, and the professionals who work with them.

The other side is a man who constantly sought out the company and confidence of Pre-pubescent boys. When they got older, he traded them in for a new one. He spent hours talking to them on the phone. Sent faxes and letters professing his love. Immediately tested their parents to see if they were the kind of parents who would object to him being alone with their child. Took them on tour. Sat them on his lap in public. Shared beds with them. Abused his position as someone people felt they knew to get close to children.

That is both sides of the story. Have you never heard of Occam’s Razor? I do not understand how anyone can look at both sides and have any doubt that he abused children.

These crimes are very difficult to prosecute. He managed to convince a lot of people he had already groomed to testify for the defence. Getting away with sexual abuse does not make someone innocent of the crime. Right now in this country only 1.9% of reported rapes are prosecuted at all. My abuser never spent a second in a cell, and that’s true for most victims I’ve met. I could never go on camera and talk about what happened to me. I can absolutely understand why a 15 year old would lie and say nothing happened - anyone who can’t understand this is severely lacking in imagination or empathy or both.

Again, watch An Open Secret. Look at what happens to victims of abuse. Look at Corey Feldman and Corey Haim’s lives and deaths. Now look at Macaulay Culkin’s life. It does not take a genius to figure out what went on. I am certain that MC was abused, and probably not only by MJ. The reality of young boys and girls in that industry is that abuse is widespread and common place. I doubt there are many child actors who were not abused at some point.

ccmrob12

You're very heavily invested in this thread, since page 1. Most people get bored after a few pages. And it's the only thread you've ever posted on on MN.

cmcrob you said I can't explain it. It is something that they all consented too (wrongly IMO)

MJ follows a pattern of grooming these victims - that is not in dispute.

No it really isn't consent for young boys or girls to say yes to a massive superstar who has groomed them on this neverland ranch and promised them toys and spent huge amounts of money on them and their families.

A minor can not consent.

I don't think you can explain it.

I don't think any explanation from a victim of this abuse will be good enough for you.

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

Guilty guilty guilty. Power, fame and wealth used to scare and silence. Looking at it in 2019 it amazes me how his predilection for sleeping with young boys wasn’t really addressed. Why would any man want to share a bed with a child? Groom and then push the parents away? Discourage the child from education? Lavish with gifts and money? Pay off people?

@grumiosmum That's a nice publicity shot on that article don't you think??

ccmrob12 you do come across as incredibly naive. I find it difficult to understand how anyone can watch that documentary and the Oprah interview and still defend Jackson.

@teatimez - No minors cannot consent, that is why it is down to their parents/guardians to consent for them. They did at the time, as I said I wouldn't no matter who it was.

You keep saying circumstantial evidence, but no court in the world works of circumstantial evidence. If it did a lot more people would be found guilty when they are innocent.

As I've said many times, people have made their minds up on this. We are just debating back and forth. Until some actual new evidence comes to light, nothing I think will change that.

Look at the Lisa Marie Priesly interview about her marriage to MJ on YouTube- she discusses the 'other' Micheal.

@grumiosmum That's a nice publicity shot on that article don't you think??

Oh for goodness sake. What a ridiculous comment. Now you are complaining about a publicity shot for a documentary about abuse survivors telling their own story.

Anyone else want to vomit when you see all those publicity MJ shots where he kisses children and kisses children in hospital and has loads of children wander onto his stage and gets them to hold hands and kiss him .... doesn't it make you want to vomit.

Yet Jarvis gets a night of full on MJ lawyers trying to find a charge (and thankfully failing to) for wiggling his bum at MJ.

@Hughes12345 - That's funny, it's how I feel about the people who have been sucked in by these two and documentary maker. At least those who haven't bothered to look into everything, all the FACTS, not just a one sided documentary.

Look at everything out there and then make your mind up. You are entitled not too of course, but then I feel you are naive.

What evidence do you want?! How do you think any historic sexual abusers are convicted?

@teatimez Why do they even need a publicity shot like that? Why does the director appear in it, that's not normal. I have never seen that before, normally the director stays behind the camera. It is so weird. Does it not come across like they are selling something to you?

And yes courts do take into account circumstantial evidence they really really do.

It would seem very relevant.

Manipulative predators don't usually invite adults to come and see them actually abuse their children.

What they do if Male the family believe that their child is safe with the abuser.

I give up on this thread and with you.

I feel you are just trying to derail it.

Thanks to the victims here.

ccmrob12 Did you join Mumsnet just to post on this thread?

I had never heard of either of the men til last week. By God if they were playing a part, why are they not oscar winning actors? James particularly looks completely broken.
The fact MJ had sleepovers (not just with young boys but teenagers too - not that that makes it any better) is not disputed. He constantly sought the company of young boys, and had special friendships with them. If this was anyone else, in RL, if it was your neighbour, your work colleague, would you still accept they just wanted to watch movies and play games, eat popcorn etc "because they were basically a child at heart"

Why the fuck can't they have a publicity shot if they want to?

Who are you to try discredit them for even having a photo taken with the director of the documentary film that was about... guess what .... Themselves.

Hardly shocking.