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Telly addicts

Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson and Me

999 replies

SachaStark · 06/03/2019 15:51

Anybody else planning to watch tonight? Part 1 of 2, 9pm, Channel 4.

I'm very intrigued to watch. I remember the Martin Bashir documentary being aired years ago, and the various backlashes/criticisms that happened afterwards.

OP posts:
StephsCaddy · 09/03/2019 17:50

Maybe years of being raped by a predatory pedophile has had a serious affect on his memory?

Fairylea · 09/03/2019 18:00

Oh come on, this is a seriously disturbed man. Details like that aren’t important at all. It doesn’t make the whole thing a lie if that’s what you’re trying to insinuate.

PickledLimes · 09/03/2019 18:04

Just the other day I was in an interview and when asked how long I spent in a particular job for some reason I said 18 months instead of 13 months. I was flustered and had a blip. And that was with far less at stake, with less pressure and no negative emotions attached to the memory of that time. Not to mention a clear start and end date unlike a realisation that the abuse was wrong, which would likely be a gradual realisation with no definitive beginning. Obviously I can never be trusted again.

Smoggle · 09/03/2019 18:06

What's the discrepancy?

ccmrob12 · 09/03/2019 18:08

Every detail is important if you are going to make such as serious allegation. You seriously think his memory that damaged from the point of documentary filming to now? If it’s that damaged how come he is able to recall everything else so well?

Come on people?

RageAgainstTheVendingMachine · 09/03/2019 18:08

How I agree with you re DG but have to point people to blinds as the guy is still alive hence libel laws are in place. Teflon-coated when it comes to the #metoo movement.
And yes, I noted Oprah was on his yacht.
And she was close to Weinstein allegedly.
Whether we judge people on the acts of others/judge people by the friends they keep is whether they know of the bad deeds and are turning a blind eye or not/ or signing Polanski petitions and the like.

sinister I thought it was mentioned that James Safechuck snr is unwell and also separated from Stephanie.

Interestingly, Wade's brother, Shane, who I thought came across very sympathetically, was a police officer in Australia and only a few months ago was doing some investigative work alongside Scott Ross...who was the private investigator for Michael Jackson's defence team 2005. Scott does not believe Wade's allegations but hopes it will not affect his relationship with his brother.

MrsChollySawcutt · 09/03/2019 18:12

That's not a discrepancy - he's coming to terms with serious emotional and physical abuse. I'd be really surprised if he could ever pinpoint the exact moment a switch flicked in his brain and he suddenly knew it was wrong. Giving different answers just indicates that there have been several moments of realisation along the way.

Years of grooming have taken place and not just of him, of his whole family. Can you even imagine how that would mess up your head??

ccmrob12 · 09/03/2019 18:17

Smoggle, the discrepancy is when Oprah asked James, when did he know what was being done to him was wrong. He told her it was when he heard Wades story in 2013, when he came out. Yet in the documentary he claimed in 2005 he told his Mum that Michael was a bad man and he wasn’t going to testify for him as he knew then it was wrong.

People ask why I don’t believe them, it’s facts like this, and there are many more like it if people bother to look. Not because I’m blinded by the god that was Michael Jackson (unlike the parents of these boys), but because their story isn’t credible.

Let’s face it, there are as many people blindly following Michael innocence as there are people who are wanting him to be guilty no matter what these boys say. Michael could never be innocent in their eyes. This documentary has played right into that using all the emotive trigger words as possible. It was only ever going to get people riled up.

PickledLimes · 09/03/2019 18:18

Do you recall every single detail of every event? Memories don't work like computers, Not the same thing but I've witnessed a number of traumatic events and I can tell you what happened but not exactly when and every detail. I saw a woman hit by the bus that I was riding on. I remember her red curly hair very clearly. I remember the case she was pulling. I remember closing my eyes because I knew that it couldn't possibly hit her. I remember the thud of her body hitting the bus. I remember her face and the bleeding from her head wound. What year did this happen? I have no idea. What was she wearing? Not a clue. What was/is her name? (She survived with permanent impairment) No idea, and I was called as a witness.

joystir59 · 09/03/2019 18:22

In the 80s and 90s we much much less aware of the grooming process that we are now. I think MJ groomed the boys, their families and whole nations!

greenpop21 · 09/03/2019 18:23

Just wanted to echo what a PP said. So glad those 2 men seem to have amazing, strong and totally clued-up wives.
I feel so sorry that they were so let down by their parents. My teen DD now 18 actually said to me after watching the documentary, Mum I now understand and am so grateful you say 'No' at times and realise it's because you love me and want to protect me.

joystir59 · 09/03/2019 18:24

I was groomed and abused and I totally get why they didn't understand until decades later that they had been abused.

greenpop21 · 09/03/2019 18:27

Sorry that you suffered that joy. I totally get that it took so long. There must be so many different feelings and phases including denial and shame.

Smoggle · 09/03/2019 18:27

ccmrob, really? You're calling that a discrepancy?
Clearly both things can be true - in 2005 he knew he didn't want to lie for MJ, in 2013 when he heard Wade's accusations he knew he also wanted to tell the whole truth. He said as much in the documentaries.

I'm actually astounded how far fans are willing to go to excuse child abuse Confused

ccmrob12 · 09/03/2019 18:30

Picked that’s not the same and you know it. We are talking about a very major and fundamental point that his claim consists of. When did you know it was wrong? To give two different answers 8 years apart for the same point in his timeline makes no sense.

It’s very different asking to to recall details from an event like an accident where you didn’t know the person in question and were put on the spot.

As I said before I’m starting to think no matter what these men say it will be swallowed hook line and sinker. They could have signs round their neck saying I’m a liar and there will be people on here saying awwww those poor boys. I think the total opposite of the fanatics on social media who would never believe he did anything wrong who can’t admit it was weird to do what he did.

grumiosmum · 09/03/2019 18:30

I think a discrepancy in the 2 accounts told many years apart is entirely understandable, and actually makes him more credible, not less.

If he was trying to deceive people he would have a particular story and stick to it.

This is much more consistent with a confused and deeply traumatised person slowly coming to terms with years of horrific abuse.

I started watching the films with an open mind, I'm now utterly convinced that both men were speaking the truth.

PickledLimes · 09/03/2019 18:31

I do love that Wade and James are held to a far higher standard than MJ himself. He lied too(even if only about his surgery) and displayed behaviour that was potentially harmful and inappropriate at best and we're expected to believe him. Yet two men who are traumatised, who were children at the time and who are under enormous pressure from the media and threats and abuse from MJ fans make one mistake and they aren't trustworthy.

Yet they're happy to believe that Michael was likely abused and that Taj was abused in spite of no real evidence(I have no problem believing that they were but these two and the others who came forwards? Not possible.

teyem · 09/03/2019 18:34

It can take people a long time to come to terms with their abuse and I can see how you might have a dawning realisation that you may have been abused at one point in your life but not be able to fully confront that abuse and talk about it until much later. I can see how this might mean the idea of 'when did you realise you had been abused?' complicated.

But I've also got to the point where it's clear that those who believe MJ is innocent at this point will do mental gymnastics to maintain that perception.

PickledLimes · 09/03/2019 18:36

BS. It is the same and the incident I witnessed happened on a definitive day unlike a realisation that the abuse was wrong that may come in stages, could ebb and flow. My friend who I referred to a few days ago was an adult before she really accepted that she'd been abused by her family friend. There was no one lightbulb moment for her and even now after some counselling and realising that it was abuse she still struggles with the fact that it was. She still has some positive feelings towards her abusers. One day she wants to kill him, another day she feels sympathy for him or smiles remembering their outings. It's an ongoing process for her. It'll likely take the rest of her life to process it.

PickledLimes · 09/03/2019 18:37

Some days she feels hurt and rage and feelings of love. She's still very conflicted and perhaps always will be. That's far from uncommon.

Samind · 09/03/2019 18:40

Was enthralled by the 2 episodes. It is very compelling stuff. I do believe the two men however. And one of them kept referring to it as "having sex" in xyz parts of the house. That to me suggests he still hasn't fully processed that it was not consensual sex as it was a man and a child. Both of them said it never felt weird or wrong etc that's how MJ made them feel. Both men also described how it was initiated and they are nearly identical stories. It's the parents I don't understand. Not that I blame them either. I just couldn't get over how far away he'd put them in hotels and the excuses he gave them etc. And they allowed it. The most famous person in the world could offer me gazillions and id never let mine share a bed. I think people struggle to accept what he has done but if it was Joe blogg on the street, everyone would be quick to get him jailed.

LucyInTheSkyy · 09/03/2019 18:40

Regarding different answers.

Think about a recent situation in your life, an incident, funny moment, etc.

Now think about the first time you relay it- say to the first person you see after the incident , a neighbour.

Then at school pick up, you tell it again to a couple of parents.

Then, a week later, you tell it to a group of friends at a meal out after a few drinks.

The next month, you tell the same story to a friend over text.

You will not have told the story succinctly, using the same detail, order of event unfolding, pauses, words etc....because you are not a mechanical robot. Instead, you will have given a version of the story, and each person you told it to would have responded slightly differently each time and so the conversation would have taken a few different turns, it will have brought up new bits of information, you will have been triggered to remember things in a slightly different way. And you may have new realisations, new connections will be made in your mind etc etc.

So pedalling out the same sentence that 'he changed his story' does not in anyway dilute his actual experience, he is living this in real-time. Recall can be difficult, excruciating most probably in this case. It matters not about the specific minute details because these men are recounting their overall experience of being groomed and abused. It was 'loving' and they thought at the time it was consensual.

Micheal Jackson was a peadophile. Whether he was dead or alive, it is only now that these men can reflect on their experience for what it was.

dragonflyinn10 · 09/03/2019 18:44

@ccmrob12 see this why I'm still on the fence more splinters ! I don't think I can solely make a decision on guilty not guilty by a poxy one sided channel four documentary as I've said and yes it will always be one sided the fact is he tried to sue the estate but the judge threw it out as you can't sue a dead mans estate if no mention of money had been made it would stop me being so cynical still 50/50 would there be evidence to go to court with if the weirdo was alive out of interest ??
but all the love and respect to survivors of abuse on this thread who have commented on this post 🌺🌺

RageAgainstTheVendingMachine · 09/03/2019 18:45

By the time of the 2005 court case Safechuck told Jackson he would not testify

Scott Ross says James was never asked to testify.
The judge had ruled against his testimony before the defense opened their case at the trial. (Testimony regarding Safechuck had been excluded by the judge as nobody had seen him be sexually abused).
Ross says neither he, his wife nor Eve Tavasci contacted James.
He says they contacted Wade to testify but there was no force or subpoena.

smoggle
Discrepancy: James says he didn’t realise he’d been sexually abused until 2013, but yet told his Mother he had been eight years earlier.
She danced 2009 as his death meant he couldn't hurt any more boys.
ccmrob
Cynics believe the discrepancy would allow a later lawsuit to be filed: James couldn’t file a lawsuit any earlier than he did as he didn’t realise he’d been abused. Marzano wrote that Wade was incapable of filing his legal action any sooner due to psychological damage.
Cynics believe Wade waited until the statute of limitations for perjury was up (I thought that was 5 years but if counted as fraud, it might be 7 ?)

Hughes12345 · 09/03/2019 18:47

I just wanted to make a comment about the Lorraine Kelly interview with Mark Lester. I was astounded when he said he found the documentary overly long and boring. I just couldn’t understand that. Whatever his stance I thought it was so disrespectful to victims of child abuse.

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