Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson and Me

[SachaStark]

Anybody else planning to watch tonight? Part 1 of 2, 9pm, Channel 4.

I'm very intrigued to watch. I remember the Martin Bashir documentary being aired years ago, and the various backlashes/criticisms that happened afterwards.

A great deal is wrong with the parents - precisely why MJ could groom then families and the children, blurring boundaries.

This documentary is so important because it shows the grooming process.

Those poor boys.

My heart goes out to them and the posters on here who have suffered from abuse.

I've just heard that his music has risen in the charts and I'm disgusted. No wonder they both kept quiet about the abuse until now, they knew they wouldn't be believed and get the support that MJ would get. I believed every word Wade Robson and James Safechuck said.

I've just started to watch the Oprah interview with Wade, James and the director. I believe both equally. I can see the pain in both of them, but James looks utterly haunted and on the verge of losing it at any moment. I hope that he's receiving help now.

I agree Tea, however I think it's a tad simplistic to say the mothers were groomed by MJ.

Rather I think they both shared some far from admirable personality traits that enabled MJ.

Both these women were obviously living vicariously through their sons.

Comments such as being proud that agents said "he was money in the bank" wrt to JS's potential in commercials and "we've been dropped" not my son was dropped by MJ.

They both clearly aspired to a life MJ was happy to fund in turn for access to their children - "I'll share him with you" (Wades mother).

MJ offered them personally what they wanted and in turn they both made many, many questionable choices wrt to their roles as mothers (not just wrt safeguarding but also basics like ensuring they got an education) - I'm not sure that's grooming tbh.

Rather it was a price they both felt worth paying whilst they reaped the benefits of being in MJ's orbit.

MJ is clearly at the centre of all this, but I don't think the mothers come out of it well at all either, in fact I found them both exceptionally self absorbed and abhorrent.

Not a fan of Oprah ( friends with David Geffen who has links with paedophiles - Hollywood is so full of bullshit )
Agree about James and looking broken - I hope he finds peace within himself.

I'm not an Oprah fan either(for a few reasons) but I want to hear James and Wade.

I haven't read the whole thread or even finished watching part two (I needed a break, it was a tough watch) but does anyone think that because the kids were boys and not girls they were less likely to be abused at the time? I wondered as Wade's sister wasn't harmed and maybe they saw MJ living his childhood through these little boys it was seen to be innocent? I think like Saville that many, many people around him knew and no one did anything or they chose not to investigate as he seemed so lost himself. All the while he was completely controlling everything around him.

I admit that I used to feel sorry for MJ with all the stories of his difficult upbringing but I feel sick now thinking how I was sucked in and sympathy for this paedophile so maybe we, as the public/his fans are still somehow being groomed.

I hope MJ's kids are ok, it's a pretty horrific reality to be faced with.

MJ is clearly at the centre of all this, but I don't think the mothers come out of it well at all either, in fact I found them both exceptionally self absorbed and abhorrent

Whereas MJ physically abused the boys and get off Scott free, he will never have to answer for his crimes. The mothers (not the fathers, never the fathers) will be vilified for life by people who believe the boys but don’t want to blame MJ, the boys will be vilified for life by those who don’t believe them, who want to continue to buy into the MJ mythology. MJ gets away with it even after he died. No wonder victims of abuse rarely come forward. I get the feeling we are still hundreds of years off from ever getting our treatment of victims right.

I don't think it is a tad simplistic.
Predators like MJ do an assessment they look for vulnerable children in vulnerable set ups and they try their luck in abusing them once they (the child and family) have gone through a grooming process.

Wade having a stage mother, having a mother say that she would share her son would be music to MJ ears. Having a mother who gave permission to utterly awful at best sleeping arrangements.

But MJ is the predator here.

The mothers and families failed yes to protect their children but MJ is the person who has sexually abused a 7 year old.

This is what I don't get with some MJ fans
On one hand they vilify the mothers or families that settled saying what idiots for letting their children sleep with MJ but also say what awful person would settle in a case if it was abuse... somehow while all the time saying there is not enough evidence to say MJ is guilty.

Sinister

I mentioned the mothers specifically because they were in the documentary.

Wades father is dead with the implication being he killed himself after his wife spilt up his family and his eldest son left Australia.

JS father does seem to have been complicit however and happy to take loans from MJ to buy a home. He was wasn't in the documentary however and thus I can't comment on how I felt his personality came across.

The implication that I'm solely blaming the mothers is untrue.

The abuser is always the point of fault - however I don't think it's at all unreasonable to question the motivations of people who absolutely made very questionable decisions that ultimately helped facilitate the abuser.

I admit that I used to feel sorry for MJ with all the stories of his difficult upbringing but I feel sick now thinking how I was sucked in and sympathy for this paedophile so maybe we, as the public/his fans are still somehow being groomed.

Yes I used to feel sorry for him too, I now think this was another manipulative ploy to win around those who weren’t his super fans. He came across as incredibly vulnerable with his lost childhood and frequent plastic surgery making it easier for everyone not to ask questions about why he was so often in the company of young boys. Looking back it was obviously odd. I think for me my doubts really started after the trial, he shuffled in like an old man and didn’t turn up half the time due to ill health. Then he was found “not guilty” and was jumping on the top of cars for his adoring fans. What a showman.

Geffen: King of the celebrity blinds. and teflon

Yes he was a showman.

It's interesting to see some unguarded online footage where he is not the "childlike" persona with the soft high voice.

Tbh just listening to him sing in retrospect there's no way his vocal range and power was underpinned by his "interview" voice.

Geffen might be king of blinds but he has a direct link/friendship/investment with DEN and that was a paedophile's paradise.

Oprah is best mates with Geffen. Hypocrite much?

DeRiguer although I used your quote I wasn’t aiming that soupy at you (sorry, should have said) but more the comments from many posters on this thread, as well as some comments made in the real world and comments in the program (the part where on a tv show someone talked about Wade and an audience member immediately said it was his mums fault, looking about as if to blame anyone by MJ). The question of fathers again, I know Wades dad committed suicide, the fathers are absent from this program and therefore seem to avoid any blame whereas the mothers have spoken and are being vilified. I feel sorry for the families, for everyone but MJ.

Thought Oprah's best friend was Gayle King (who recently interviewed R Kelly) and Oprah has obviously most recently supported the abusers.

She had child abuse in her South African schools and thought that she has said the buck stops with her and she is an abuse survivor. Also didn't she originally also get sucked in by MJ?

I don't get the Oprah hate to be honest. Don't think it should take away the interest in MJ.

I would like to actually find out more about those who enabled MJ abuse the handlers, those who worked for him, the pr people.

I keep thinking about when Jimmy’s Mum said her hotel room kept getting further and further away from MJs and then she ended up on a different floor. When she challenged it his handlers just kept saying there was no availability for a nice room near MJ. That was a blatant lie, so it’s obvious the handlers knew.

There’s a very interesting point made in the Oprah post documentary screening by Wade. He says most paedophiles begin grooming their victims from the very first time they meet, with MJ because of who he was / who he presented himself as, this grooming began before they even met him. His whole persona / set up was geared towards making himself appear safe and parental and attractive to children. He was grooming children before he was even meeting them.

I think there's a huge overlap between the kind of people easily lured into cults and the kind of parents who are easily manipulated by paedophiles.

No Oprah shouldn't have any distraction from MJ's abusive victims I was just pointing out her own friendship circle.

Geffen has similar rumours surrounding him ie Jackson, Saville, Singer, Kelly, Epstein, Allen etc etc.

FFS -abuse victims.

Sorry if I'm being thick. Yes, i watched both parts ofthe documentary. What i don't understand is, why did they accept MJ's money to testify for him as adults? Was it that they still hasn't come to grips with the abuse and THOUGHT he was actually innocent?

@Ironfloor269, also note James Safechuck only gave a sworn testimony in the 1993 Jordan Chandler lawsuit against Jackson which was eventually settled outside court. Safechuck was only 15 then. By the time of the 2005 court case Safechuck told Jackson he would not testify.

Wade Robson did testify in the 2005 case but he still was only 22 and said in the documentary that he wasn’t ready yet to continue confront to himself and the world what had happened.

I’ve started watching the Oprah interview (I don’t know anything about the woman so can’t really make a judgement on her) but the kids are making a racket and I can’t concentrate so it’ll have to wait until later. From what I have watched though, I don’t see how Jimmy is going to make it through this in one piece

Mama - it is inevitable that his staff knew what was going on. Someone washed the sheets etc. All of them complicit.

I notice how no one has answered the major point on this Oprah interview about James and why he gave two different answers in the documentary and this interview about when was the moment he knew what was being done to him was wrong. How could there be such a huge discrepancy on such a basic and fundamental point?

Anyone?