Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson and Me

[SachaStark]

Anybody else planning to watch tonight? Part 1 of 2, 9pm, Channel 4.

I'm very intrigued to watch. I remember the Martin Bashir documentary being aired years ago, and the various backlashes/criticisms that happened afterwards.

They 'they are proven liars' thing is getting to me so much. People are not following that to its logical conclusion. If you say you disbelieve them now as they lied in court..thats admitting that they lied in court when they said he did nothing. Which says he did abuse them. So 'they lied then so are liars now' really is not the gotcha people seem to think.

Some people are saying Jimmy’s dad has spoken out that he doesn’t believe that jimmy was abused. Has anyone seen that?

I think anyone saying why didn’t they come out about this sooner isn’t looking at it in the wider context. Wade was at the peak of his career as a choreographer when the abuse scandals broke, he was a teen hero, people like Nsync and Britney Spears wanted to work with him. He says himself in the documentary there was no way he was ever going to be talking about the abuse he suffered with MJ in the middle of all that going on.

The psychology and context of it all is everything. The comments on You Tube are really shocking, so much victim blaming going on and people saying he’s such a liar and lied again and again. He had good reason to - or believed he did. He thought his whole life would be utterly destroyed.

The real problem is that Michael has been dead for 10 years now, and therefore nothing can ever be proven. I struggle massively with this in that there is no way of knowing this is true, and the world could be turning on an entirely innocent man.

I began in support of James and Wade, but the more I read the more I question it. It is not, however, my position to label him guilty or innocent.

I really hope it isn't true, for the boys sake more than anything else, as it would be such a harrowing thing for them to go through. Sadly, we will never know.

Some people are saying Jimmy’s dad has spoken out that he doesn’t believe that jimmy was abused. Has anyone seen that

I haven't seen it but it wouldn't surprise me. It's not unusual for the Father's of boys who have been sexually abused to go into denial about it, in my experience. Perhaps he is worried that if he acknowledges the abuse he'll be judged harshly for allowing a paedophile unrestricted access to his son. I'd be interested to hear what legitimate and innocent reasons he thinks MJ had for inviting Jimmy into his bed on all those occasions.

The real problem is that Michael has been dead for 10 years now, and therefore nothing can ever be proven. I struggle massively with this in that there is no way of knowing this is true, and the world could be turning on an entirely innocent man.

Do you feel the same about Jimmy Saville?

Does anyone wonder whether MJ’s children were abused?
What also was the motivation for marrying Lisa Presley? Why on earth did his children’s mother agree to be a baby factory and just leave her children in his clutches?

I was wondering why I was shocked and moved by the documentary when we've all known that he had boys in his bedroom and we've known about the accusations for years.
I think I'm shocked because previously, although what we heard sounded wrong, it was shrouded in mystery and all sounded so weird.
Seeing the documentary, it slots into place, like it did with Jimmy Savile. If he's guilty, he simply followed the abuser's script. Like a drug addict, his compulsion drove virtually everything he did. If he's guilty, then bearly all decisions about anything will probably have been influenced by his need to be in bed with a little boy that night.

Nearly, not bearly

I think the women who’ve had “relationships” with MJ need to come out and speak openly about their experiences. Surely that would be revealing. If they were just a front (as surely they were) and even arranged and organised to be so, surely it’s something that should be discussed openly in light of the documentary?

His sister said he had been paying out cheques out to little boys for years and that he needed help, and that their mother knew but wouldn't say anything as MJ would cut off her money and she would be on the streets.
One of his dancers said MJ had been in the company of little boys for 9 years non stop.

What also was the motivation for marrying Lisa Presley?

He idolised Elvis for starters. Mostly though I imagine he thought that it would help to stop the press and public from speculating about his interest in young boys.

I think the women who’ve had “relationships” with MJ need to come out and speak openly about their experiences. Surely that would be revealing. If they were just a front (as surely they were) and even arranged and organised to be so, surely it’s something that should be discussed openly in light of the documentary?

That's their choice though, isn't it? Just because they were married to MJ that doesn't mean that they were complicit or even aware of the abuse. They don't "need" to justify themselves to anyone.

Has Lisa Marie ever spoken about her marriage to him?

I believe them.

There is enough undeniable factual evidence of the very strange, intense and manipulative relationships that MJ had with each boy and their families (e.g. sharing bedrooms, lavishing with gifts, persuading the families to let the boys stay long term alone with him) that the final unprovable aspect of what they say (the sexual element) is much more plausible than the deniers version (that the physically adult sexually mature MJ was somehow innocent, childlike and asexual.)

And those who question why the abused men would lie in court and deny it happened - that's a classic pattern of abuse. Those boys really loved MJ. They were made to believe that what they were doing was an expression of their love but that terrible things would happen to themselves, their families and MJ if they admitted it. Of course they wouldn't want to stand up and hurt those they loved.

Just look at what people are saying about them now. They were right to fear what would happen.You can understand why others might stay silent.

And for those asking why staff never witnessed anything. Apparently there are statements from MJ staff who witnessed sexual contact.

I watched some of it and even if you don’t believe that MJ was. paedophile you cannot think of a good reason for a young man to share a bed with an unrelated young boy. It’s just not right. I’ve had discussions at work w colleagues who don’t believe the accusations and are still saying ‘he was childlike’ ‘he was abused’. Tbh I thought MJ was a weirdo 35 years ago so even my teenage self knew there wasn’t something right there. That was before he went completely out there with his face too.
I doubt we will ever know the exact truth, but there was definitely something not right going on in Neverland.

Lisa Marie insisted it was in every way a normal marriage. Hard to believe. Debbie Rowe had children for him unquestioningly and didn’t seem to want to be much of a figure in her children’s lives. No one knows who the fathers of his children are, or father. It’s all so so dysfunctional as to be incomprehensible really.
Why did this freakish man inspire Iove and loyalty in his wives and friends? Why did his children adore him? He sounds in reality like a monster.

The real problem is that Michael has been dead for 10 years now, and therefore nothing can ever be proven. I struggle massively with this in that there is no way of knowing this is true, and the world could be turning on an entirely innocent man

Do you feel the same about Jimmy Saville?

Didn't people know what JS was doing whilst he was doing it and the real scandal being he was allowed to carry on?

I don't know if there are any contemporary accounts about MJ?

*Didn't people know what JS was doing whilst he was doing it and the real scandal being he was allowed to carry on?

I don't know if there are any contemporary accounts about MJ?*

er - what about the Martin Bashir interview?

www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/living-michael-jackson-martin-bashirs-stomach-churning-documentary/

I don't know if there are any contemporary accounts about MJ?

The Jordy Chandler allegations happened in 1993, the same year Latoya said he was a pedophile.

Martin Bashir was 2003

The amount of people on my Facebook friends list who are angrily defending MJ is really making me question the common sense of the people i'm acquainted with.

I've directly asked three different people (who are publicly defending him) whether they'd allow their children to go and sleep in his bed if he were alive, not one will give me a straight answer.

I didn't watch the whole documentary as the graphic descriptions were too upsetting.

All of his behavior with children and the pattern of it screams that the accusations are true. How anyone can believe the 'he was like a child' line is beyond me. So many abusers are abused themselves, but I've never heard any ordinary people who turn out to be peadophiles having a common reaction to their own abuse of childlike behavior and becoming asexual themselves. It it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

It is similar to jimmy Saville and Harvey Weinstein, it takes a lot for victims to come forward. Alot of time and change in circumstances.

Those close to the perpetrator don't want to believe it as they too idolize him and get some of their feeling of identity from him. Some staff probably didn't know, some probably turned a blind eye.

And I agree the mothers came across very badly, they were definitely negligent and could have been turning a blind eye themselves. One of them let her children on a sleepover after four hours, that's not due to grooming!

I can never enjoy his music again now, I will think of what he did to those little boys every time I hear it.

Why don't any of believe the version of event from another person who was abused as a child, his nephew Taj Jackson? He has been doing interviews all week, explaining how he was abused as a kid by family friend. He was at the sleepovers and in and around these boys at the time they claim they were abused. He said if there was even a 1% chance he thought his uncle was guilty of anything, he would have said so. He was there, he also knew what it was like to be abused so he would have been able to relate. Is he lying also? Why believe Wade and James over Taj? Culkin? Mark Lester? Corey Feldman? They were all there at one point and they all crossover, as confirmed in the documentary.

Anyone care to answer any of this instead of simply stating "I believe them". They have everything to gain by getting a payday and nothing to lose as they know Michael is not here to defend himself, and you can't defame a dead person, they know it.

Actually with Lisa Marie if you watch one interview with an America broadcaster she makes it clear hat MJ convinced her that he needed her (much like the younger boys I thought) and that she saw less and less of him.

She said she did love him once - I never got a sense that she would now call it a normal relationship.