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Telly addicts

Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson and Me

999 replies

SachaStark · 06/03/2019 15:51

Anybody else planning to watch tonight? Part 1 of 2, 9pm, Channel 4.

I'm very intrigued to watch. I remember the Martin Bashir documentary being aired years ago, and the various backlashes/criticisms that happened afterwards.

OP posts:
HowlsMovingBungalow · 07/03/2019 10:27

Someone that recieves a paycheck from one of the most famous people on the planet...

Wouldn't you fear for your life if you reported him? Come on people, these people have/had a massive amount of power in the world.

PrincessScarlett · 07/03/2019 10:34

A lot of R Kelly's entourage turned a blind eye to what he was doing so it's not too far fetched to suggest the same was going on with MJ's staff at Neverland.

BusterGonad · 07/03/2019 10:37

100% agreed, even in normal run of the mill jobs people are scared to whistle blow as they have mortgages to pay, mouths to feed etc and that's without the extra burden of the possibility of being arrested for aiding a child abuser and maybe something terrible happening to you!

MinisterforCheekyFuckery · 07/03/2019 10:59

I have worked with the victims of child sexual abuse my whole adult life and I personally found the two men very, very credible. Everything about their stories; the things Jackson said to them, the gradual escalation in sexual contact starting with masturbation, his use of pornography as a way to normalise what he was doing, the way the boys were replaced when they got too old, the struggle to reconcile the feelings of love and affection they felt for their abuser with what he did to them...it's all so familiar. I've spent years listening to similar stories.

Those saying that Jimmy was too "emotionless", that's an accusation that is often levelled at victims of sexual abuse. They often appear very detached, almost cold, when describing their abuse. It's a self-preservation thing. Survivors will sometimes describe how they "left their body" while the abuse was taking place, as if they were watching it happen to someone else. If they allowed themselves to feel the full horror of what happend to them (the shame, the confusion, the revulsion, the physical discomfort, the guilt because they found themselves having an involuntary response of arousal) how would they actually go about their daily lives and function? How would they keep the secret, present as 'normal' in front of their families? They have to "detach" themselves to an extent in order to survive. As for Jimmy keeping the jewellery even though he found it distressing to look at, again it's not at all uncommon. It's a kind of self-punishment. The child is made to believe that by accepting gifts or money they are culpable and they blame themselves.

I think it's interesting that sexual abuse is the only crime where the default position is to be suspicious of the accuser, to scrutinise every aspect of their demeanour and make judgements about whether it fits with how we think a "victim" should behave. It's hardly surprising that so few come forward. No wonder these men lied, not just to protect their abuser, but also to protect themselves and their families from the inevitable backlash, from the intense scrutiny, from being labelled either as victims or as money grabbing opportunists.

He did it. There will be others. Anyone who believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

HowlsMovingBungalow · 07/03/2019 11:03

Agreed Minister! It is good to hear from professionals who work with survivors and help with the aftermath of abuse.

Hushnownobodycares · 07/03/2019 11:11

I believe them.

Do those saying we can't know for sure believe the same applies to Jimmy Savile?

FiddleFaddleDingDong · 07/03/2019 11:21

I think it's interesting that sexual abuse is the only crime where the default position is to be suspicious of the accuser, to scrutinise every aspect of their demeanour and make judgements about whether it fits with how we think a "victim" should behave.

So true. Demonstrated by the widespread use of the term 'cry rape'. You never hear anyone say 'cry mugging' or 'cry burglary'.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 07/03/2019 11:25

Watching it now, Jimmy's mum is really odd, she's talking about how great the lifestyle was and how she had people cooking for her, rather than what Michael was doing to her child.
Giggling about listening through the door too.

Grooming the adults to get at the children.

Slaymill · 07/03/2019 11:30

I agree with the Stockholm syndrome affecting their judgement.

The manipulation is evident with both families. Very similar to the mother in Abducted in Plain Sight they seem besotted with the perpetrator to a disturbing degree which warped their common sense. Money & fame impresses some people and it sickens me.

Also the boys were in love with MJ and he took advantage of that.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 07/03/2019 11:31

Its very harrowing

I cant say more than that but its rare that something actually shocks me, this did

of course he fucking did it.

why would anyone would make this up? why would we even doubt them

I cant really express my horror adequately

teatimez · 07/03/2019 11:33

Vanity fair have a story where MJ got a serious La gang to come into neverland and drive around to freak out and warn the staff before the trial started.

HowlsMovingBungalow · 07/03/2019 11:42

He had involvement with Crips and Blood gang members. They were in his 'Beat it' video.
Power trip huh?

teatimez · 07/03/2019 11:49

Yep and using the gangs was a real and terrifying method to make sure staff kept quiet.

I thought both Wade and James look traumatised at times and I totally believe them.

Unbelievable to me that someone could defend MJ.

Also I would like to hear from the original prosecutor but he has died.

I hope they can sue the estate and I hope they can one day get some compensation it won't make up for the abuse though.

PositiveDiscipline · 07/03/2019 11:50

I just finished watching it and felt sick throughout. I didn't want to, but I believe those boys. The thing that does it for me is the way they talk about him. They are not angry. It goes much deeper than this. They loved him, they didn't see anything wrong with the abuse at the time. They probably do still have feelings for him. That, to me is the most damning evidence in this documentary.

Also, their mothers (and Dad's) basically prostituted their sons to MJ. They should be locked up too.

Ozzybobgoblin · 07/03/2019 11:50

It was so harrowing watching part 1 last night. I'll be very interested to see part 2 tonight because by God I need to see some remource from those mothers ( and obviously fathers) for pimping out their children. And you can tell me the families were groomed till the cows come home but them mothers turned a blind eye for money, holidays and a lifestyle they dreamed of. To leave your 7 yr old with a man you met days before for a WEEK with no contact, no mobile phones etc. A 7 yr old Angry While she went to the grand canyon for a fancy all expenses paid trip. I'm sorry but the parents were as guilty as MJ.

SoleBizzz · 07/03/2019 12:02

Watching the last hour of it now. I do believe him.

MinisterforCheekyFuckery · 07/03/2019 12:10

Those saying if he was guilty then they don't understand why someone on Jackson's staff didn't blow the whistle on what was going on, really??

To accuse anyone at all of child sexual abuse is a huge thing, you would have to be 100% sure, you would have to have concrete proof before you chose to blow up someone's life like that. But to accuse one of the most famous and powerful men in the world...can you even imagine? Just think about the enormity of that for a second. Losing your job would be the least of your worries, you would be terrified for your safety, for your families safety, knowing that Jackson had the resources to make your life a living hell if he wanted to. You would be terrified of not being believed because you're a nobody and this man is universally adored. You'd have to realise that the press would be intruding on every aspect of your life, if you had any skeletons in your closest whatsoever they would be revealed and used to discredit you.

You'd have to be crazy to put yourself and your family through that.

Fairylea · 07/03/2019 12:11

I believe them. 100%.

How anyone can doubt them I have no idea.

The families were groomed. Just horrific.

AgentCooper · 07/03/2019 12:13

I believe them. Watched part 1 last night and felt sick. The shots of the wee toy cars lying about and the sadness they felt when they were discarded for other boys - it was heartbreaking. They were so young.

Thanks Minister for articulating what I think a lot of us feel, from a position of experience. People are so unwilling to believe that a survivor’s response to abuse and the abuser isn’t clear cut or unchanging. I’ve no doubt that even as adults WR and JS still felt love and sympathy for MJ while being traumatised themselves, completely in conflict. So many people are at fault for facilitating this.

alaric77 · 07/03/2019 12:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fairylea · 07/03/2019 12:15

I saw part 2 on You Tube earlier before they removed it. The repercussions for the whole family and long term are just horrendous. The man destroyed so many lives.

MsTSwift · 07/03/2019 12:29

The utterly true cliche about power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely springs to mind. I didn’t doubt these men for a second can’t see how you could. Ministers post very interesting from a professional in this field

SinisterBumFacedCat · 07/03/2019 12:49

Ministers posts are very informative. It’s true that rape and sexual assault are met with initially disbelief when reported in a way that other crimes aren’t. A comedian (can’t remember who) did a good take on how it feels to report a car theft and be treated like a victim of sexual assault. “With a flash car like that you’re asking for it to be stolen” “why park it down such a dark street?”

I believe them. I still can’t get what they said out of my head. But nothing will convince the Supefans. I can’t see how it’s not obvious, all those different films of him walking around holding hands with different boys, who are replaced with younger versions once they get “too old”. How was the “reliving his childhood” such an acceptable excuse for so long? This isn’t really a thing, compared to the obvious.

PrincessScarlett · 07/03/2019 13:00

I also didn't realise that in public MJ spoke like and acted like a child but in private he sounded very different. The producer of the documentary was talking about this the other day. Makes it sound like MJ was very very manipulative about how the general public perceived him and that everything about him was carefully planned to hide what was really going on.

mydogisthebest · 07/03/2019 13:07

Why would someone make it up? Oh come on for money maybe, for fame? Who knows. Why feel the need to make a film about it? Maybe to make their billion £ claim supposedly more convincing

Out of all the boys that stayed with MJ why are there only 2 alleging abuse?

NO ONE except those boys knows if it is true or not so to say you totally believe them is just rubbish.

Didn't the FBI carry out a full investigation which went on for some time into him and which found nothing?

Also just because the producer of this said he didn't speak like a child in private does not make it true.