Lassies of Lallybroch in the Caribbean - The Outlander Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahoy

[MoNigheanDonn]

New thread lassies for all things Jamie and Claire (and all things in between).

Only two episodes left! Hope everyone enjoyed episode 11.

I’m oddly undistrubed by the ambiguous LJG relationship. I find it much less difficult to swallow than Jamie marrying Leghair, for example. I guess I do think that deep friendships always have some kind of romantic energy attached to them and this is what’s going on here - John loves Jamie, Jamie loves John. For John, there are sexual and romantic undertones. For Jamie, there are deep seated layers of gratitude, guilt, and intimacy. I think we shouldn’t forget that for the long years of Jamie’s wilderness of the soul he was so lonely he physically didn’t touch anyone (he says so). Even if he refused johns advances, he was the only one who came anywhere close to touching him - this is not a sexual thing but a human connection thing, and I can totally believe that it would survive separation and distance

Leghair

I wouldn't say I was disturbed by it, I just don't think it's likely I didn't think Jamie marrying Laoghaire was likely either, even more so in the show as he knew she'd tried to have Claire killed.

Geillis was fab. I've always had a soft spot for her

Agreed! I'll be sorry to see the end of her in a way and I'd have liked her to be in more episodes this season too.

Having watched it again, purely for research purposes, on a rare afternoon with no one else at home, I don't think the looks that Jamie was giving John were sexual. I think he is overcome with seeing his friend again unexpectedly, self conscious because Claire is there and he is very aware of the nature of John's feelings and desperate to indulge in an unmanly show of affection with hugging and stuff. He's also desperate to find out about Willie. He probably didn't think that he would ever see John or William again and he can't believe his eyes.

Are we meant to be disturbed by Jamie and John, do you think, and the undercurrents their relationship creates? Or are we supposed to be so secure in Jamie's manliness that we can't conceive that he might love John back, even if not in a sexual way.

Can you imagine living all that time without being touched or having any real human contact? It doesn't bear thinking about.

Or are we supposed to be so secure in Jamie's manliness that we can't conceive that he might love John back, even if not in a sexual way

I wouldn't have a problem with Jamie being gay. But as far as I'm aware, he isn't even bisexual and add in to the mix everything he went through with BJR, I don't think LJR would get a look in for friendship or anything else especially when he found out LJG was sexually attracted to him.

Tis only my opinion though and it's interesting to hear everyone else's thoughts on it

I think we’re all overthinking it :)

Everyone loves Jamie. Including us. And Jamie has a huge heart. He can love us all, each in his own special way ;)

You're probably right Aka.

But I just wanted someone to love Jamie for his mind instead of his smoking hot butt

But I hope guess that Murtagh does, so unless they're going to kill him off anyway, I'll settle for that.

Lots of people love him for more than just his unbelievable hotness. John loves him for his mind too. But all his men love him, and his tenants. Later the native Americans love him (some of them for his butt, mind you.) most women can't keep their eyes off him, though, it's fair to say.

Aka, that's hilarious

He is friends with Ian Murray Snr as well, unless DG had him marry his sister because he couldn't openly love Jamie! And he gets on with, and looks after young Ian too, without that going all incestuous and weird.

I think it all shows what an odd minded woman DG is. If she'd only taken the money and run after 4 books then we maybe might not be debating it all. Do you think the books are "of their time" re the homophobia, or is this, again, showing us who DG is?

I think I'm just cross that I can't finish book 6. And I hate being beaten by a book. But if we have more LJG triangle and Claire in on the action, and marrying him (wtf haven't got that far) I don't think I can!

He is friends with Ian Murray Snr as well, unless DG had him marry his sister because he couldn't openly love Jamie

Probably, in DG's head. How much is Jenny supposed to resemble Jamie

I think it all shows what an odd minded woman DG is. If she'd only taken the money and run after 4 books

Not half. I wish she'd stopped at Book 1, tbh (or at least learned to self edit). I'd say Book 1 was the only one I really enjoyed. I liked Drums of Autumn but I can't remember any of it apart from Roger on the ship and had to give up with book 5. I like the characters but not enough to plough through the minutiae of daily life.

Jenny doesn't look like Jamie at all. She is tiny and dark, he is huge and fair. Jamie and Ian are blood brothers, they did the whole cutting the hands thing when Jamie's mother died.

I like the later books. There is a lot of superfluous detail and they need a heavy edit, which DG apparently can't do for herself, but the story is lovely. Claire does marry John. They think Jamie is dead and Claire is about to get arrested for sedition so John marries her to protect her as a sort of last good deed for his dearest friend.

I do think some of the homophobia is a reflection of when the books were written. Things were very different twenty years ago. I wouldn't like to guess what goes on in DG'S mind, though. I bet it's all very weird and creepy.

I think the books are very much of their time in quite a few different ways. Book Mr Willoughby is a racist caricature for example. There's also a couple of sex scenes where the idea of consent is a bit dubious.

I just the LJG and J story a bit fanfiction.net. There are spin off / younger Jamie books which are really just poor fanfiction- DG certainly can't claim she spent a lot of time or effort on them.

I think the books are very much of their time in quite a few different ways. Book Mr Willoughby is a racist caricature for example

Unless Voyager was written in the 1950's (which it obviously wasn't) I can't imagine her portrayal of Mr Willoughby ever being acceptable. He's nothing more than a cartoon in the books. Voyager was published in the 90's and I can't believe she wasn't picked up on it. I cringe just thinking about him in the books.

They've done such a good job with his character in the show that I'm going to be sad to see him go.

They changed a lot for tv, I think they have to be sensitive to 'modern times' to even get it screened. The racism just isn't acceptable today, it had to be changed. The consent issues also had to be clear cut. Yes, it makes it much better and palletable to a 2017 audience. Had it been filmed even in the 90's I think it would have been interpreted very differently and rubbish

Regarding when they were written, she is writing voyager through Claires 1960's eyes. So yes, still ok to be racist. But how much racism was just fine and dandy where DG was when she wrote the books? I think she just wrote it, and we give her far too much credit for every little nuance.

I think she just wrote it, and we give her far too much credit for every little nuance.

Wholeheartedly agree with that. However, (and I can't quite remember the bits in the book so correct me if I'm wrong) but she handles black characters a lot better than she does Mr Willoughby (and it's still not brilliant). So I think we'd be giving her too much credit to say that 'Claire' sees Mr Willoughby through the lens of the 1960's.

I think that she is trying to portray Willoughby as kind of "exotic", iyswim. Chinese people would have been very unusual in Scotland in the 1700s. There weren't exactly very many of them around here when I grew up, even, and the way they were spoken about/regarded just wouldn't be acceptable today. So, she is portraying him as a kind of caricature. I think he becomes a little less cartoonist as time passes and he travels away from Europe.

However, I absolutely agree that we all give her far too much credit.

One for the Christmas stocking Ladies

Outlander calendar

I think the thing that's problematic with Mr Willoughby, is that we know Claire was well-travelled. As a child she travelled all round the world with her uncle, you would have thought that it would have made her more tolerant and experienced with dealing with people from other parts of the world. I understand that the 18th century tavern goers (where we first meet him) might not be so open-minded. All the horrible foot fetish stuff, I mean, really.

Exactly quirky Also all the backflips he does 'like a flea' and Jamie grabbing him by the ankles and calling him 'The Chinee'.

It's horrible. I was in my late teens in the 90's and I refuse to believe any of that was acceptable even then.

And the Blue pyjama things, it's all so stereotyped. I always boggled at Jamie picking him up by the ankles. He must be supposed to be really tiny. I was late twenties and thirties in the nineties and the attotude to Chinese folk here was not good, but then you still almost never see a non white face here and attitudes are still bad.

she is writing voyager through Claires 1960's eyes. So yes, still ok to be racist

Not really. Claire was living in Boston in the Harvard community during the Civil Rights Movement. Her best friend was black. Her treatment of Mr. Willoughby in the series is actually more in keeping with her character and her time and place.

You're right seneca, so it's muddled and inconsistent. How was this not picked up in an edit? It must have been edited, or at least read through before publication. Otherwise it would be full of dodgy rape and over repetitive plot lines...oh, hang on.

We are hurtling towards monday and the last episode too

I wonder if DG's editors were just so scared of her they let her writing stand... I know I read an interview with her about the first book, where she says she had read loads of books, so she knew what she had written was really good . Yeah, great ideas, it just needs massively refining. The show has really shown how much better the storyline are edited down. The whole Mr Willoughby plot is soooo much better, and shows J and C in a much better light.

Yes the show has taken the bones of the story and taken out all of the murky consent issues, racism and homophobia and made a much better job of the story.
It’s a shame so much of the later books plots rely on sexual assault because they really could do with not always using rape to add dramatic tension!!