Game of Thrones Season 7, Episode 7 discussion thread *SPOILERS*

[OlennasWimple]

CAUTION - HERE BE DRAGONS (PROBABLY) AND SPOILERS!

THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF SEASON 7, EPISODE 7 "THE DRAGON AND THE WOLF"

Come and discuss the very last episode in the penultimate series, airing August 27th at 2am UK time! Don't read the thread if you want to avoid finding out what happens in Season 7 but also Seasons 1-6.

Please avoid discussing leaks and production details for Seasons 7 and 8 but speculate away on what we have learnt from the new episodes and what it might mean for the rest of the Season and the ultimate winner(s) of the Game of Thrones.

True, fairly dickish. But not kidnappy and rapey dickish.

I think Rhaegar and Robert would tie pretty equally on the 'being a dick' award.

coriliavijvaad
Sorry not rtft but wandering in to say:
Given that Eddard Stark was told by his sister that "Jon Snow" is in fact wossname Targarayen, how come he spent so much time tracking down Robert Barratheon's bastards? Surely he would know that JS would have a better claim to the throne than any of them?

As explained up thread, he wasnt tracking down RB's bastards for succession reasons, Robert was still alive at that point, it was because he was coming to the realisation that all of RB's real children were dark haired and thus Cersei's children weren't Roberts .

Someone should probably mention to Euron Greyjoy that whilst the dead can't swim they can apparently dive and walk across the bottoms of deep water without any trouble, also have a dragon who can fly, can happily walk on frozen seas and can presumably sail a boat if needed. I do not think that the Iron Islands are safe.

Euron only pretended he was going home to the Iron Islands, Cersei explains to Jaime at the end of the episode that is was a ruse and he he was actually sailing to Essos with his ships to get The Golden Company army and sail them back to Westeros so that Cersei could betray Team Targ et al .

I am dissatisfied with Littlefinger's summary execution. He didn't get a proper chance to defend himself for one thing. Neither was he pronounced guilty and sentenced to death by Sansa. Arya just slashed his throat with no due process. They should have at least considered the possibility of allowing him to take the black even if they rejected the idea (obviously the lack of wall is going to be a problem for that option now but they weren't to know that.) The difference between a lawful judicial execution and the cold blooded murder of prisoners is that the former has a trial, a verdict and a sentence. Littlefinger's death did not have these.

Littlefinger killed their aunt & their uncle, he betrayed their father, directly resulting in Neds execution, he attempted to murder Bran. He married Sansa off to Ramsay knowing his reputation as a rapist and torturer and plotted with Sansa (she played along) to kill/falsely imprison Arya. i think they were pretty lenient by giving him a quick death tbh.

Did Lyanna feel any guilt over the deaths of her father and brother? Why weren't they just honest about it? A war was already raging because of them.

Wtf ! Just read the next season isn't till 2019 ? Is that right

I'd never really thought before that Jon Arryn was their uncle, but of course he was.

Why weren't they just honest about it?

ASOIAF is a story full of really important themes. Apart from being anti-war it is also a social commentary about the feudal system and the way it locks people into certain patterns of behaviour. In particular, marriage is not something individuals have any say over - betrothals are made for political reasons. In particular, child-brides (and grooms) are common, even if consummation doesn't happen until an 'appropriate' age.

Love marriages in Westeros are very rare and those examples given (Doran Martell) often do not end well.

Likewise, marriages are restricted by social status. This is very limiting when you are as highborn as someone as Sansa Stark - a child of two very noble Houses. Dareon (a lowborn singer) was sent to the Wall as a rapist for having consensual sex with Mathis Rowan's daughter. It was the Wall or gelding.

Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna were given any say over their betrothals.

It's also consistent with how Arya has been trained to kill, she just got on with it. And I think it's probably an index of how brutal the world has become and actually how brutal/traumatised Sansa and Arya are. Essentially everyone in Westeros has PTSD by now.

I agree that scene was a letdown though. I thought from quite early on that they were tricking Littlefinger but it was never unravelled satisfyingly and I would like to know when they started it. I think what happens is Arya finds the message in LF's room and realises immediately that she has been meant to find it. She has actually been through way more mindfucking stuff than LF and it doesn't make sense that he could trick her like that. She confronts Sansa because she DOES want to know Sansa's explanation, but she also knows this is what LF intends - there's a key point when she tells Sansa she can kill her but then turns her knife round and gives it to Sansa. It would be the perfect wordless gesture to make if she (Arya) suspected LF might be listening.

It's possible it won't come out till 2019 depending on the post filming production process.
The episodes will likely be longer and all scenes will need to be shot in winter, so if they fall behind they'll delay it rather than have it look rushed. They can't push the release date too far into the same year without clashing with the rest of the programming schedule so the same time the next year may be a better option but more around the old April start time than July.

Lila the giveaway is that Arya gave Sansa the dagger at the end of episode 6 but Arya was then wearing the dagger when she was brought into the trial.

Presumably there was some 'offscreen' conversation between those times between the girls.

The whole Winterfell plot for this season was rather poorly written IMO.

What were aryas exact words before turning the dagger towards herself with Sansa? I wonder if she made it clear there that LF was the problem and Sansa got the message, and there was no missing scene where they chatted explicitly about it? (As they would never know when they were being watched)

In fact, all of their scenes might have subtext... might be time for a series rewatch already!!

^It's possible it won't come out till 2019 depending on the post filming production process.
The episodes will likely be longer and all scenes will need to be shot in winter, so if they fall behind they'll delay it rather than have it look rushed. They can't push the release date too far into the same year without clashing with the rest of the programming schedule so the same time the next year may be a better option but more around the old April start time than July.^

And I bet Winds Of Winter still won't have been released by the time season 8 comes out.

Trills
I'd never really thought before that Jon Arryn was their uncle, but of course he was.

Its not completely confirmed in the books however there is a popular theory that Jon Snow was named after Jon Arryn in the same way all the other Stark boys were named for people close to Ned Stark

(as well as being Neds brother in law, Jon Arryn was Neds foster father)

BeyondLimits there was no hidden subtext. I've known all the leaks this season and knew what was coming. It was what it was - there was no scheming between Arya and Sansa until some time in between episode 6 and 7.

Sad, but true.

D&D wanted it to appear 'fraught'. Well done for making both Arya and Sansa look like idiots (again). Second season in a row for both of them...

I definitely thought that Jon was named after Jon Arryn, in a "he was Ned and Robert's mentor" kind of way.

And Robin/Robert Arryn is named after Robert Baratheon

I just hadn't twigged that he was married to their aunt and therefore their uncle. Maybe because he was dead the whole time we've known them.

And maybe because the Stark side of the family has always been presented as being more important than the Tully side of the family.

Family, Duty, Honour is just not as dramatic as Winter Is Coming.

Ah bugger arya - I didn't expect to find it but I was hopeful that d&d weren't umm, themselves!

The whole Lyanna/Rhaegar thing makes absolutely no sense now.

So they met at the tourney, fall in love, run off. So far, so good. Her relatives assume she's been abducted, perfectly understandable.

Rhaegar decides to ditch his wife - with no grounds whatsoever for an annulment. He can't even argue she's related to him because that's the preferred targ mating strategy! Wife is ditched, Lyanna is married and pregnant or pregnant and married.

The rebellion is kicking off......and the so wonderful Rhaegar says nothing about his now wife and just launches in to the fight. Why??? And Lyanna presumably goes along with this stupid idea,

It made sense before the marriage was known about. Either she had Stockholm syndrome or genuinely loved him and they didn't tell the truth because he was married anyway and the whole thing was very messy. But if they had married then she couldn't be taken away from him, he's made a. Honest woman of her blah blah. There was NO reason not to go public.

I loved Littlefinger asking his guard to take him back to the Eyrie and the guard replying: "I think not!" Best line of the episode for me.

NorthernLurker, good thinking - this hadn't even occurred to me but makes a lot of sense!

The only conceivable reason that I can think of for keeping the marriage a secret would be that the discarding and replacement of Elia might have posed a risk of Dorne kicking off. But even then, this would only make sense if the plan was to put measures in place to deal with this before going public and for Robert's Rebellion having thrown a surprise spanner in the works.

It's a bit of a stretch and depends on the exact sequence of events, but it's the best I can come up with.

I imagine the conversation by the prayer tree (sorry can't remember the name) between the three Starks went on for a little longer. Maybe the logic for the writers was that if the audience knew for sure what was happening then LF would know too iyswim. It backfired in that there wasn't enough consistency for the audience esp around Arya's character and that has been frustrating to watch. Arya presumably can still use LF's face and go to KL?

Northern I guess you have to generously assume it's to do with the chronology of the war. Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna and it's presumably while they're in Dorne that the Starks ride down to King's Landing to demand her return, the Mad King immediately murders them and it all kicks off. By the time Rhaegar knows what's going on it has gone way beyond being about Lyanna's disappearance. Also, if he announces their marriage at that point, House Martell will join the rebellion and then the Targaryens really are fucked, plus Lyanna will be in enormous danger as she's in Dorne about to give birth. So maybe he bets on answering the call to arms, defeating the rebellion, getting Lyanna out of Dorne and then deciding when/how to announce the marriage when they're victorious and safely back in King's Landing, but both he and Lyanna die instead.

(Presumably there is some really good admin reason why they have to run off to his ex-wife's family's territory to do all this because otherwise it seems spectacularly dumb!)

(Or what Bossy said but it took me a lot longer to figure out and write down).

I loved Littlefinger asking his guard to take him back to the Eyrie and the guard replying: "I think not!" Best line of the episode for me.

That was Rupert Vansittart, who I will always associate with his Four Weddings and a Funeral character - "damn fine filly, I think I was in there"!

Whenever Tim McInerny comes onscreen being all gruff and northern and fierce unfortunately I only see Lord Percy.