Game of Thrones Season 7, Episode 7 discussion thread *SPOILERS*

[OlennasWimple]

CAUTION - HERE BE DRAGONS (PROBABLY) AND SPOILERS!

THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF SEASON 7, EPISODE 7 "THE DRAGON AND THE WOLF"

Come and discuss the very last episode in the penultimate series, airing August 27th at 2am UK time! Don't read the thread if you want to avoid finding out what happens in Season 7 but also Seasons 1-6.

Please avoid discussing leaks and production details for Seasons 7 and 8 but speculate away on what we have learnt from the new episodes and what it might mean for the rest of the Season and the ultimate winner(s) of the Game of Thrones.

Wtf ! Just read the next season isn't till 2019 ? Is that right

No, the producers were asked in an interview a couple months ago whether it's possible season 8 wouldn't air til 2019 and replied along the lines of "maybe".

Somehow, over the past week, this has become definite proof that we'll have to wait 2 years for the final season!

When I watched it, I was under the impression that Sansa and Arya hadn't discussed the tricking of Littlefinger, and that Arya didn't know for sure which way Sansa was going to go. Because LF was so cunning and sneaky that he could have rumbled what was happening, no matter how private the discussions between Sansa and Arya were. I could be wrong though- Arya gave Sansa some pretty good advice about lying.

I like the way Sansa has quietly learned from all the people who have mistreated her - The Lannisters, Ramsay, and LF.

I still think that Jon Snow will not make it to the very end of the last series (even though I love him). He is too noble, too incorruptible, too messiah-like to survive. He will sacrifice himself to save the world eventually, I think.

I assumed that for Sansa, the realisation that LF was playing her again came wnen he asked her what Arya would become if she killed her (sansa). He was right, that sansa knows arya better than he ever could. Arya would never want to be lady of winterfell, and never has. Thus would have occurred to Sansa the moment he asked the question, which I'm guessing is the point when she turned the questions around on him.

Oh vg, yes. I like that explanation far better.

Just watched it. I loved it! It tied up a few things that bugged me in previous episodes (ok there were still things that bugged me in this one too).

Re: Jon being called Aegon, since we don't know when exactly he was born, maybe Aegon1 is already dead? And he's being named in a sort of all-that-was-lost-will-be-restored type way. (I know Aegon1 is still alive in the books, but it looks like he isn't in the TV version, and there's no reason Lyanna would have known even if he was.)

Re: secret marriage, I think the keeping Dorne onside thing is plausible. Also, why would anyone believe you that it was consensual? Oh, yeah, she totally consented to marry her rapist, honest. I mean, look at Sansa and the gits she's married. I think it would just enrage Robert further. TBH, he strikes me as the "you stole my girlfriend" type even if he did believe she'd consented.

Also, it was very common in medieval Britain for siblings to have the same first name.

Ned stark was tracking down robert's bastards to verify the theory he had about Cersei's children not being robert's

For those asking earlier in the thread what LF's motive was, he said it in the last season to Sansa I think; that everything he does, every step he takes is to get himself onto the iron throne.

Sansa said in season 6 "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger". I don't think she has trusted him this season.

Chevalier hit the nail on the head. If Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell with Sansa's face she would have done it when they were alone in the room with the faces and the dagger. Instead, she handed the dagger back to Sansa.

The dagger made its way back to Arya before the 'trial' during whatever off-screen plotting the girls did.

Why Littlefinger thought that Bronze Yohn Royce - who has always hated him - would escort him back to the Eyrie is beyond me.

Aegon1 was already dead when Lyanna gave birth. There are instances of siblings being given the same name in the books. There are how many Walder Freys? There are also two brothers called Wat in The Sworn Shield. I can't find any examples of it in the Targaryans, even though they did use the same names over and over. It seems a very un-Lyanna like thing to do - she was notoriously feisty and independent like Arya. Why she would name her son the same name as her husband's first son - dead or alive - is beyond me.

By the way I wasn't objecting to Littlefinger's death in the slightest. Slimy worm got what was coming to him. But Starks are supposed to be honourable and to do things properly. Sansa only just said a few lines ago "It's not what I want, it's what honor demands." She would have known that the correct form would have been to say "In the name of Jon Snow, King of the North: I, Sansa Stark, Lady of Winterfell, sentence you to die" (that being a nice reflection of Ned Stark's line in s1e01) - THEN Arya cuts his throat with the knife he used to cause so much of this grief (no problem with Sansa not following the rule of "the one who passes the sentence should swing the sword", Arya being so much better at killing). Honour is then satisfied.

Rhaegar decides to ditch his wife - with no grounds whatsoever for an annulment.

Didn't someone say up thread that Rhaegar's previous wife (Elia Martell) had secondary infertility? Would that have been grounds for an annulment? (Not the "reason", but the grounds within the law)

Also it's quite possible that the wedding took place when Lyanna was already quite pregnant with Jon. The order of events could have been:

Lyanna (consensually) and Rhaegar start having lots of shagging in secret. Lyanna gets pregnant.

When she realises she's pregnant - which could be not for a few months in the absence of ClearBlue tests - she realises there's going to be some trouble given that she is betrothed to Robert so they run off together.

Robert kicks off Robert's rebellion and starts killing people.

After a lot of fighting which could have been over a number of months, Rhaegar realises that his family are going to lose the war and he gets his marriage to Elia annulled at that point and marries Lyanna - possibly hoping this will allow him to get Ned Stark onto his side and get things to turn in his favour. (though we see Lyanna in profile and there's no huge baby bump, she could be 5 months along and still not look very pg)

However then the sack of Kings Landing and the murder of his children by Elia Martell happens - we know that they must be already dead by the time "Jon Snow" is born.

So I guess my theory is that the whole annulment and marriage to Lyanna was a strategy from Rhaegar to diffuse the hostility against him and turn the tide of a war already raging, rather than having been his plan all along? Obviously it didn't work, and by the time the baby was born the tide was so far gone against the Targs that actually it would have endangered the Starks to have the knowledge public.

corilia I'm applying Occam's razor to both your arguments and am going to come up with a much more simple exaplanation and that's that D&D can't write for shit. Let's face it, they came up with the Bad Pussy line FFS.

Littlefinger's trial:

Did they have an actual verdict given before they executed him? No. The honourable Starks would at least have given him a chance to defend himself. It stinks of a 'show trial' of the sort that the Brotherhood carried out with the Hound where he was pronounced guilty of virtually every murder committed by House Lannister until he called them out on it.

But, hey, it looks good when Sansa delivers the 'thank you for the lessons' line followed by the throat-slit.

Rhaegar's annulment:

The marriage to Elia was consummated and produced heirs. I can't see any High Septon annulling the marriage because he wanted it - he wasn't King at the time.

The whole bullshit is to conveniently and simply put Jon higher in the succession than Dany because D&D got rid of the fAegon storyline. Hence why Cersei - who has no realistic reason to be currently in power in Westeros - is still in the show. The Golden Company who should be fighting for fAegon is fighting for her.

This season defies logic on so many levels. In terms of narrative consistency, it's utterly gone to shit but, hey, it looks awesome.

If the books every get published I am willing to bet good money that there is no annulment, no 'secret marriage' (which would be pretty pointless and invalid anyway - look what happened to Tysha) and Jon Snow will not be called Aegon.

Was the rebellion only started because of rhaegar and Lyanna? Was it not linked to getting rid of the mad king and all prospects for future mad kings? (I haven't read the books)

Also aren't all of cersei's children doomed? She's supposed to outlive them isn't she? So this one won't last either. Maybe that doesn't matter in the show...

Mner the 'catalyst' for Robert's rebellion was the abduction of Lyanna. Robert was betrothed to Lyanna at the time and betrothal is a big thing in Westeros. It's not just a case of 'I'd like to marry you'.

There were definitely issues with Aerys' rule and a great rebellion against him was on the cards anyway, particularly after Aerys' relationship with the Lannisters broke down. Rhaegar/Lyanna was the 'straw that broke the camels back'.

As far as Cersei's children are concerned, GRRM has alway said that 'prophecy is a very tricky thing'. However, I can't see a happy end for Lannister baby v4.

I haven't read the books, can someone just give a brief outline of what fAegon is (ref below) or is that spoilers?

The whole bullshit is to conveniently and simply put Jon higher in the succession than Dany because D&D got rid of the fAegon storyline. Hence why Cersei - who has no realistic reason to be currently in power in Westeros - is still in the show. The Golden Company who should be fighting for fAegon is fighting for her.

FAegon I think means Rhaegar's son Aegon born by Elia Martell, who was thought to be murdered by the Mountain.

Rhaegar's second son named Aegon is Jon Snow, thought by us to be illegitimate so no claim to the throne.

While since I read the books but I think that first Aegon (By Elia) wasn't murdered after all in the books. This means as Rhaegar's son, he would be heir to the iron throne rather than Danaerys who is Rhaegar's little sister and only heir because people think Rhaegar's children are dead.

In other words, the plot needs one of Rhaegar's legitimate children to be alive to have a greater claim than Danaerys to the iron throne. As in the series the first Aegon is seemingly actually dead, they've married Rhaegar and Leanna and so made Jon snow a legitimate child of Rhaegar, rather than a bastard born out of wedlock who would have no claim. He is then the child who has a greater claim than dany to the throne.

BlackThumb

fAegon is a character introduced in book 5 (hinted at earlier) who is supposedly the Aegon that Gregor Clegane killed as a baby. He has been raised in Essos by a character called Jon Connington (and some others) who heads the Golden Company of sellswords.

Tyrion meets up with this in Essos and he has been raised under the watchful eye of Varys. The general consensus in the book world is that Aegon is a fake (hence fAegon) and is possibly a descendant of the Blackfyres which were a bastard branch of the Targaryans.

In the books fAegon and the Golden Company have reached Westeros and taken Storm's End. He is likely to be supported by Dorne and some important families in the Reach (possibly Tarlys). In all likelihood, he will take over King's Landing at some stage.

He is very likely to be the main human opposition to Dany taking the Iron Throne. His role has obviously been divvied up between Cersei and Jon and in a way that is clumsy and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Oh and the Golden company are mercenaries, apparently very skilled. They were founded by a Targaeryan, and in the books, as the first Aegon is still alive, they are on his side.

I have no idea how this will pan out. Apparently they're very good fighters so having them on side is going to be influential - whether they will still fight for Cersei when they find out that there is an Aegon targaryen still alive remains to be seen. They are mercenaries but equally I wonder whether the name Aegon has significance from that point of view and they can be turned... wishful thinking probably!

X post with McTufty.

Oh the Aegon in the book was fake - totally forgot that part. Thanks arya!! Was that ever established for sure?

makes mental note to reread

The Golden Company was founded by Bittersteel who was a bastard son of Aegon IV. The aim of the Golden Company was always to support the Blackfyre's to overthrow the Targaryans (to put it very simply).

McTufty it was never established for definite that he's fake but there are lots of hints that it's the case.

AryaUnderfoot

un-Lyanna like thing to do - she was notoriously feisty and independent like Arya. Why she would name her son the same name as her husband's first son - dead or alive - is beyond me.

My DH keeps telling me I need to get my hearing tested, and maybe he's right. When Lyanna told Ned Jon's name, I would have sworn she said 'his name is Eddard Targaryon'. It took reading this thread to realise I'd completely misheard it. Luckily I didn't post that anywhere or mention it to anyone.

Muddling Eddard would have been so much better.

She could have have some Targaryanification of it by calling him Aeddard or Aeddon or Daedard.

Does anyone know why Ned never told Catelyn who Jon's real mother was? I suppose it couldn't be revealed in the books as a spoiler but it always made me hate her in the series how she was with Jon.