The Handmaid's Tale Vol 2

[PacificDogwod]

I go to work and this is what happens: the previous thread fills up when I have pertinent things to say!

Hope nobody minds, I've taken the opportunity to start a new one before the Offspring demand food and the likes...

One of the masterful strikes of strategic genius of the new regime is the division and envy between everybody and everybody: men vs women, women in different roles vs other women, high ranking vs low ranking.
No solidarity is allowed - even the partnered Handmaids were half companion and have guard. Never knowing who might be an Eye and who to trust must be soul destroying.

I think Serena is quite a tragic figure - in the book and in the TV series. She must feel so betrayed by the ideals she fought for and that she is now kind of forced to uphold because otherwise what would her life be?? Admitting that she supporting a world view that while giving her some kind of social status by dint of her husband's role, considers her without value as she cannot have children would render everything she stands for invalid, and herself by extension.

The author who wrote a book about women being able to electrocute men by touch thereby causing a power change over (sorry, I cannot remember either name ) was talking on Radio Scotland today. She said the idea for her book came from when she wondered why so many mechanisms in society seem to go back to the fact that 'more men can throw a woman across a room than the other way around'. It's a depressing thought that physical strength underpins so much.

In the book other religions were recognised but those practising them were removed from Gilead. Jews were sent to Israel (I think that was the only one mentioned but it's been a while since I read it). There was some talk of the boats taking them there being sunk.
Nuns were not allowed; not because of their religion, but because they weren't fulfilling their biological destiny of producing children. If they were fertile they became Handmaids. I think also Gilead wouldn't trust a woman who knew the bible, they would be too inclined to challenge the commanders/regime.

I can't stop thinking about that last episode. I thought it was really well done, going backwards and forwards in time to show how June and Luke got trapped. Sweet Baby James is one of my favourite songs of all time (I sang both my DDs to sleep with it for years) so I was in pieces over that scene. I thought having 'Little America' in Toronto made a lot of sense - I might now be getting a bit muddled between the book and the series, but I think it's in the book that June thinks there must be a US government in exile somewhere who will eventually reassert control.

I also think the book says that the Quakers have gone underground and are part of the resistance, so I initially thought the rescuers were some kind of Quaker underground railroad.

No - handmaids don't always get pregnant, though no one will ever admit the men are infertile. If they don't get pregnant, they get moved on after a certain time - I guess a year, but I don't know.

Book again (which I know might not be the same) - postings are for two years unless something goes wrong, and there aren't enough handmaids to go round which is why they get moved from posting to posting. Aunt Lydia tells the women that once things settle down there will be enough handmaids for everyone to have one and they'll be part of the family, like daughters. It's one of the things that's always stayed with me, that bizarre distortion of family life. But it meant I was surprised that it was only three years later, because I've always thought it was nearer five. Maybe something did go wrong with June's earlier postings. Or perhaps it's another change, or an incorrect recollection by June (she hints at this a few times).

I'd love to see June's mother. Also, my one surprise/disappointment is that we haven't seen much of the Mayday network. My theory before the latest episode was that Luke was with Mayday and had set up the Mexican ambassador's aide to look for June.

Yes Mornington I thought the Mexican guy said Luke was alive and with the resistance, but could have misremembered that.

I don't think Luke was not a good guy, but like many men he doesn't appreciate the full impact do the misogynistic sanctions but they don't directly impact him. Recently discussing a women in leadeship initiative in work, a colleague sincerely asked me why they do this as sexism doesn't exist anymore

a colleague sincerely asked me why they do this as sexism doesn't exist anymore
Ahahahaha...

And that's the problem, all the ones who don't see it, in the workplace, in 1930s Germany, in Gilead. All it takes for evil to flourish - and most people don't see the problem till it's too late.

Exactly so, eBearhug.

I think people don't speak out or challenge authorities when they 'go bad' for selfish reasons as much as anything, sadly. Look at western politics now...there's a lot of really shoddy decisions being taken by shoddy people, but they're voted in - or voted back in - because people who are 'doing okay' are worried that if things change radically they might lose what they have. And western society is all about possessions now - it would take a lot more crapness these days to make most people walk away from their house, car, possessions, clothes, etc. Most would sit it out and hope that things improved somehow.
It would take some horrendously obvious act of carnage directly and obviously by the regime to really scare most people. And that's why so much of the government of the world is so corrupt and basically bad.

Have to say as well that most governments are still male-dominated. Theresa May might be a woman, but if you watch her she's acting like a man for the rest of them - like Thatcher did. She talks in quite a booming, low voice, wears tailored suits, jeers and whoops with the boys on the benches, and shows few traditionally-feminine traits like compassion or modesty.

Men value strength (and size lol) above everything, and most see traditionally-feminine traits as signs of weakness. The world is in the mess it's in because women aren't in charge. Don't get me wrong, women can be arses too, but men have spent evolution being single-minded, reckless hunters in a world where the strongest wins, whereas women were the ones who had to get along within a community over a long winter, prepare ahead, and keep everyone alive!

I just asked DH how he would react if it was declared women couldn't work or have their own money anymore. Would he consider leaving the country?

He said surely the question is how would you react? You are the one being fucked over so you would decide if we stay or go.

We then discussed it would probably take us a while to get organised, and what about family etc etc blah blah and realised we could end up substantially delayed in leaving or too afraid to try it.

But for a husband to say 'it's ok I'll look after you' without panicking, discussing options, worrying about future restrictions of rights... come on, he's clearly a selfish shit.

Oh and when I pointed out to DH that I'm a SAHM with only a small amount of savings in my own account, (plus both on our first marriage) so in practice it wouldn't affect us much he said yes but even if you were happy for that state to continue indefinitely, I still have a daughter. What about her future?

Because, again, he's not a selfish shit.

Good points Batteries.
I don't know if it makes them shits but I do think it is easy for many people to be apathetic when problems don't affect them directly. It does make them selfish and annoying, though!

Is Luke a shit or is his first instinct towards respect for authority? Everyone else was leaving the country and he insisted on doing it properly, applying for visas and waiting even when they took a long time. He was also very deferential in meeting with the woman who gave him the news about June.

June is led by those around her rather than leading. She deferred to Luke over the visas. She rebelled when she was led by Moira.

I think MA intentionally made Hannah female. To throw into sharp relief that Luke not only was willing to ignore the impact on his wife but also his child and her future. Don't know why people are so keen to excuse Luke, bet a woman who refused to think of her child would be judged much more harshly.

I don't know if that scene was fleshed out enough for us to fully interpret Luke's reaction. I think the men in the workplace for example were just stunned and felt powerless to object - although they should have done, of course. I haven't read the book yet, maybe it's fleshed out more there?

We did see scenes of men and women protesting and being killed. So I think it's firstly shock and disbelief, and then fear, that prevents people from rebelling in situations like these. Plus the men have less to lose, of course, but maybe they can't immediately process the implications for the future?

How did Luke not consider his child?

I think if society were to change so dramatically in such a short period of time that it would take a while for your brain to catch up & realise what was going on. I don't think that makes him selfish or uncaring or a shit.

I think that was a cross post Roz - I agree.
I do think his reaction to the women losing their jobs was bordering on selfish though, he was pretty dismissive about it, and he was possibly just trying to reassure them.

although he was possibly just trying to reassure them.

There's so much to see between the changes in attitude towards women and them fleeing the USA. A lot to flesh out.

What did the media do?
Did they encourage the change in attitudes?

How do you fight changes against authoritarianism?

It was a cross post Emma as I agree with you

It's interesting to look at the parallels with Jewish pp in Germany. At first the oppression started slowly and a lot of middle class Jewish families who had lived there for decades , had businesses, were professionals etc couldn't quite believe what was happening to them and were in denial about it. It was often when it was too late for them to leave, that the full enormity sank in. And of course, no one ever came back from the gas chambers to tell them...

Yes, I agree. It's not like the Nazis were advertising 'we're sending you to the gas chambers. Hitler wasn't elected on the promise to send jews ad others to the gas chambers. It happened gradually.

It takes an awful lot for people, especially well off people, to leave their homes, businesses, families. Germany was a civilised country - I totally understand that they couldn't understand the enormity of what was happening to them until it was too late.

I find it hard to believe that there are people still living in Aleppo but they're there, with their kids.

Indeed. Just like think about the life you have right now. Just how bad would it have to get before you left literally everything behind you, other than than the clothes on your back...?

Luke didn't even entertain the discussion properly. And he wasn't at the protest.

There's a world of difference between 'shit this is bad but I feel a bit paralysed about what to actually do' and 'hey it's not so bad, I still have a job and stuff'

I mean FFS he knew Moira was a lesbian. On a very basic level she would need to find a man to pay her rent and buy her food. She talks about an arrangement with 'one of the gay guys' and Luke just thinks oh that's fine and dandy then

Why was it not running through his mind shit how long is this going to go on? What if Hannah is gay? It's obvious that if women can't work the next thing to be restricted is female schooling. What if Hannah can't get a decent education? How long is this going to go on?!!

Instead he was all very oh calm down dears and infuriatingly short sighted about it. If not selfish then just stupid.

And the comparisons to Nazi Germany - by the time Jewish people were stripped of jobs and professions I doubt many were going around saying oh don't worry it will be fine. There's a world of difference between inability to escape (understandable, so many different reasons) and refusal to contemplate it.

It's possible that he was either looking after Hannah or was at work. I don't think him not being at the protest means he wasn't bothered.

Plus if he'd been there, it would have wreaked the comparison between June and Moira in the coffee shop after running and then after the protest.

Sorry, wrecked

I think Luke was very deliberately written that way in the book -- not a bad man but a clueless one who has a very traditional gender-based reaction that he can protect his family on this bad situation by providing for them, and not really understanding what it really means to be a woman on this.
That follows through with his focusing on getting visas. He's trying to fix it by following the 'rules' and doesn't really have the imagination to think outside the box.
Same for the affair. It casts both of them in a bad light but again, shows him as someone who, while not a bad person, is a weak one. He doesn't think things through properly and doesn't always come to the right decision.
That's why I like him as a character. As a human, he's a bit wet.

I'm interested to find out why the ambassador knew who June was and Luke's name, because they clearly weren't closely connected.
The ambassador would have to have done done serious research to not only know who she was but who she'd been married to and what happened to him.
In another show, I'd have said it was just written in for dramatic effect and there probably wasn't anything in it, but this is so tightly scripted, I think there's definitely more to the story.

Yes June and Luke are both wet and selfish. Not heroes.