The Handmaid's Tale Vol 2

[PacificDogwod]

I go to work and this is what happens: the previous thread fills up when I have pertinent things to say!

Hope nobody minds, I've taken the opportunity to start a new one before the Offspring demand food and the likes...

One of the masterful strikes of strategic genius of the new regime is the division and envy between everybody and everybody: men vs women, women in different roles vs other women, high ranking vs low ranking.
No solidarity is allowed - even the partnered Handmaids were half companion and have guard. Never knowing who might be an Eye and who to trust must be soul destroying.

I think Serena is quite a tragic figure - in the book and in the TV series. She must feel so betrayed by the ideals she fought for and that she is now kind of forced to uphold because otherwise what would her life be?? Admitting that she supporting a world view that while giving her some kind of social status by dint of her husband's role, considers her without value as she cannot have children would render everything she stands for invalid, and herself by extension.

The author who wrote a book about women being able to electrocute men by touch thereby causing a power change over (sorry, I cannot remember either name ) was talking on Radio Scotland today. She said the idea for her book came from when she wondered why so many mechanisms in society seem to go back to the fact that 'more men can throw a woman across a room than the other way around'. It's a depressing thought that physical strength underpins so much.

[InigoTaran]

It is powerful indeed. I actually had a frightening nightmare about it after the third episode! I dreamt I was trapped in a community where my role was to 'service' the men there and wasn't allowed to leave. It's all too horribly plausible and realistic for many of us I think as its only a few steps removed from current reality.

Something else that strikes me about our discussions is that we are talking about Gilead as if it is real. It has an internal logic to it which makes sense, like somehow it all holds together if you know what I mean?

[FuckyDuck]

I also think the doctor was suggested to be gay, he was rather effeminate but 'gay' is obviously not allowed. I think he used the word sterile to signal to Offred that he was a safe person to talk to. It suggested to me he'd 'helped' other HMs get pregnant and he saw it as a kindness?

Also agree with the driver giving her space to lose a bit of control.

I'm intrigued to see how the relationship with the Commander plays out, his wife clearly wants to be more involved in the politics but he just shuts her down. But he's kind to Offred, it's an odd dynamic!

[Batteriesallgone]

I don't think he's kind to Offred. She's his plaything. I can't imagine he has many choices of Scrabble partner.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

I think you are absolutely spot on about Gilead's internal logic, @InigoTaran - and that is what makes the book and the programme even scarier. It is so much easier to picture it as real, when it makes sense, whereas when you can pick holes in the internal logic, that takes away some of the fear factor.

[cadnowyllt]

It has an internal logic to it which makes sense, like somehow it all holds together

Does it ? To me it make no sense whatsoever - totally unbelievable. Who is meant to be benefitting from this kind of regime? Is this meant to have come about following a coup in modern day America ?

As others have pointed out even the men don't seem to be getting much from it - off fighting at some far away war, standing around on guard for hours or living a horrible existence but just thankful to have a job at a supermarket - and as above, its even hard for posters to imagine the Commander having many choices for scrabble partner.

Its a work of fiction requiring a great deal of effort to suspend disbelief. No wonder it sends many to sleep.

[Batteriesallgone]

Hierarchy is very important to humans. Something deep in our psyche. Like that Monty Python sketch - I look down on him because he is middle class, etc. A lot of people crave a 'stable' society in which you can tell who someone is and what status they have just by looking at them. Who benefits from our current set up with the super rich at the top and people living homeless at the bottom? I imagine the arguments for Gilead would be that everyone has a job, man at work and woman at home. That family life is encouraged.

Plus there's the whole your spiritual soul is looked after etc. I'm currently reading a book about early Mormonism - the things people go through when in the early stages of establishing a religion are often horrific, and that is often embraced by the devout as proof of their devotion and deserving of afterlife etc.

Which links in to the scrabble - who benefited when the Puritans banned Christmas? God. And those high up in the church who wanted to control the common people.

Control/power is a drug, possibly the most powerful one of all. Don't underrate it.

[LottieandMia]

I see the Scrabble thing a bit differently. To me it seems that the commander isn't enjoying the ritual and wants to have a connection with Offred so that he can carry it out more easily. To me this is what the book implies. Perhaps I'm wrong though.

[Batteriesallgone]

I feel like the Scrabble thing is like one of those ink dot pictures where there are lots of different possible views on it, if that makes any sense. A really clever bit of narrative.

[Flightywoman]

Cadnowyllt I think it makes sense if you think about it as the result of a completely ill-conceived coup that unexpectedly succeeded.

Very often that kind of situation is widely ideological but has NO considered structure. It originates from an extreme of one political end or the other, and is usually made up of soundbite politics
"Jobs for all"
"Strong family morals"
"Safer streets for all women"
"Every child a wanted child"

And so on, with no consideration of "what does our society look like from start to finish and at all points in between".

Think about Trump - his success is based totally on sloganeering, his actual political view has weak structure and no substance. And yet, states are passing laws that say things like employers are allowed to sack women who have abortions or use contraception.

That's real and yet utterly dystopian. And not a million miles away from the world of the story...

[Loopytiles]

Addition of FGM to the story is very clever and relevant, but horrifying.

"Predominately practiced in African countries, as well as Indonesia, Iraqi Kurdistan, and Yemen, UNICEF estimated that roughly 200 million women underwent FGM in 2016. Often used by extreme fundamentalist religious regimes."

200 million shocksadangry

[Loopytiles]

Trump has also cut funding for overseas aid to organisations funding or providing abortions (alongside many other essential services for women).

That awful picture of him and all the men signing the paperwork for it.

[illegitimateMortificadospawn]

Reposting from the Trump thread, just so we all know how fragile women's rights are in the US at the mo:

"The legislation would undo a relatively recent St. Louis ordinance that prohibits potential employers and landlords from discriminating against women based on their reproductive health history. In other words, if they’ve had an abortion. Or have used birth control. Or if they are pregnant."

//www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/missouri-women-could-soon-be-disqualified-from-jobs-based-on-reproductive-decisions_us_59481869e4b0cddbb0089fce

[pixieg1rl]

The scrabble games can be interpreted in lots of different ways. Is it because he wants to make a human connection with the handmaid? Is it because he wants to get one over on his wife? Is it because he's one of those powerful men who thinks he's untouchable and can get away with it? Does he want to reinforce that he has total control over Offred? Is it because despite being at the heart of the regime he's not strongly aligned to their ideology? Does he think that everyone 'out there' needs to be told how to be but not him?

I love that it's ambiguous; you only see Offred's point of view and she's thrown by it, and no one knows who to trust in Gilead, it feels like the whole society is controlled by division and suspicion

[StorminaBcup]

Thanks for the new thread. MsFortunaMajor that's really interesting.

I think Gilead is believable, I think it was mentioned on the other thread but the ideals / rules and what happens to handmaids and people in general are all things we read about or see on the news. Even my DH has said it's scary to see how easily something like this could happen, it's not a million miles away from females married to daesh fighters. There's an interesting article here, it doesn't sound so unfeasable.

The significant number of Western female recruits also indicates that women continue to join Daesh despite the group’s persistent and well-documented abuse of women. Interestingly, Daesh propaganda not only acknowledges the distinction between in-group and out-group women, but justifies the use of violence against out-group women on the premise of promoting the rights of Daesh women. The use of sexual slavery, for instance, is openly acknowledged by the organization’s publication Dabiq and then unexpectedly justified as a promotion of women’s rights. The publication argues that since the desertion of slavery, adultery and fornication have risen, which is ultimately a disgrace to women, whose husbands are led astray. The solution, Dabiq argues, is to legalize slavery so that the ensuing relations are legitimate, and therefore not a disrespect to men’s wives. The notion that the enslavement of some women is necessary for preserving the honor of other women illustrates a dual conception of women: those within Daesh who are worth protecting, and those outside Daesh, who can be used and abused with the justification of enhancing women’s rights within the territory

[Batteriesallgone]

It's the whole Madonna / whore thing. Gets reenacted all over the world, all the time. It's totally believable.

[LottieandMia]

The only thing about Gilead that doesn't seem plausible is that the regime says it is based upon scripture. Although the hypocrisy is shown when Offred points out that righteousness doesn't seem to be a part of every day living in Gilead.

[Batteriesallgone]

You could say the same about ISIS.

You can find sections of the bible to justify anything you like, Deuteronomy is good for that.

[LottieandMia]

Yes, true.

[FastAbsorbingCake]

@illegitimateMortificadospawn, they've voted it in........

feministing.com/2017/06/21/missouri-votes-to-let-employers-fire-people-who-use-birth-control/?utm_content=bufferdd041&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Bloody scary stuff

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I've just caught up on the last 2 episodes aired in the U.K. So much to catch up on. I actually cried when Moira escaped, when Offred nodded and smiled at her; I really hope the 'aunt' who escaped is Moira.

Also Ofglen and the Martha's trial and immediate punishment.

And am I right in assuming they performed FGM on Ofglen to make her 'not want what she can't have'. Horrific.

[Batteriesallgone]

It's not that long ago the U.K. forced chemical castration on Alan Turing for being gay.

[AltheaThoon]

So in Gilead are there some 'normal' families? Couples with children? And what becomes of the children? Are they schooled? What can they do with their lives?

I'd love to see deeper into Gilead.

[CloudNinetyNine]

I assume only the boys will be schooled. The girls won't need formal schooling as they will be Marthas or handmaids or wives.

The city we saw when June and Moira escaped - was it supposed to be recognisable to us? I think the big building was round or curved - is it a landmark of sorts?

[ElenaGreco123]

Apparent6it was filmed in Toronto.

Why were they taking the street signs off? To confuse them or are they renaming the street?

[illegitimateMortificadospawn]

I think because women are forbidden to read.