The Handmaid's Tale Vol 2

[PacificDogwod]

I go to work and this is what happens: the previous thread fills up when I have pertinent things to say!

Hope nobody minds, I've taken the opportunity to start a new one before the Offspring demand food and the likes...

One of the masterful strikes of strategic genius of the new regime is the division and envy between everybody and everybody: men vs women, women in different roles vs other women, high ranking vs low ranking.
No solidarity is allowed - even the partnered Handmaids were half companion and have guard. Never knowing who might be an Eye and who to trust must be soul destroying.

I think Serena is quite a tragic figure - in the book and in the TV series. She must feel so betrayed by the ideals she fought for and that she is now kind of forced to uphold because otherwise what would her life be?? Admitting that she supporting a world view that while giving her some kind of social status by dint of her husband's role, considers her without value as she cannot have children would render everything she stands for invalid, and herself by extension.

The author who wrote a book about women being able to electrocute men by touch thereby causing a power change over (sorry, I cannot remember either name ) was talking on Radio Scotland today. She said the idea for her book came from when she wondered why so many mechanisms in society seem to go back to the fact that 'more men can throw a woman across a room than the other way around'. It's a depressing thought that physical strength underpins so much.

Thanks @AnotherEmma. She seemed to initiate it though? By asking him if she could stay.

Why did she want to stay there?

It was the Commander who got her out of her solitary confinement. For all her hatred of him he is the key to small freedoms and privileges.

She just wants to stay in his good books doesn't she? If she pisses him off what knows what might happen. Like a DV sufferer 'initiating' sex because she knows then he won't hit her.

I think she turned back because she'd been dismissed in disgrace, basically, and needed to use the only power she has to get him back on side. She can't displease him or she'll be punished.

Yes I agree Batteries. I think she realised that he wanted her to apologise and beg to stay. He loves the power, he wants her grovelling - she is his plaything. And I think she did it because she has to play the game. I wonder what the consequences would be if she displeases him... she clearly doesn't want to find out.

Cross post Essie! YY to that.

I think she's doing what she needs to do to survive.

I just had a thought - during WW2, French women had German officer 'boyfriends'. After the war, these women were treated awfully by the population who accused them of collaborating. But I suppose it could be argued they had little choice. Turning down a man who had power and who could make your life very difficult may not have been an option. At the same time, a German 'boyfriend' could offer some kind of protection and benefits in a very difficult situation.

People do what they need to do to survive.

deep down think well on some level she's probably enjoying it / complicit

But this did happen in the week before last week's episode: when Serena Joy took Offred to Nick (not when Offred saw Nick on her own), and then again when the commander touched Offred's thigh during the ceremony. I think last episode she asked him never to touch her like that again, which doesn't make sense given her reaction after kissing him.

So it's even written in there, in a way, or perhaps I'm missing the point and it's meant to demonstrate sexual autonomy. Either way it's my only criticism of the series so far.

Last week she said to never touch her like that 'in front of her', so I guess she was a lot less bothered without the commander's wife in the room

Storm
" I think last episode she asked him never to touch her like that again"
Makes total sense, she was telling him not to touch her like that in the ceremony in case Serena Joy noticed and made her life hell.
She wouldn't dare tell him not to touch her like that in private - as demonstrated by the kiss.

Storm
Do you really think she enjoyed the scene when Nick had to rape/fuck her in front of Serena?!
She didn't. She had to endure it. That's why he apologised afterwards.

I don't think she enjoyed either of your examples Storm.

Although I do think both examples are the kind of thing that would be presented as enjoyable in our pornified society.

I'm going to watch it again and see. The way it was filmed and directed was definitely different to the previous weeks. Perhaps it's just me.

She wasn't enjoying it when he was touching her legs she was panicking. It was intensely uncomfortable to watch.

She wasn't enjoying it when he was touching her legs she was panicking. It was intensely uncomfortable to watch.

We & Offred know the Commander was intimate with the previous Offred, because she found the pig Latin motto from the wardrobe in his dictionary in the study the first time they played Scrabble. We know something caused previous Offred to kill herself - possibly the visits to the study were discovered & made her position in the house untenable. Possibly Serena made her life so miserable, death was preferable. Whatever. Serena Joy spotting inappropriate intimacy with the Commander is certainly fraught with danger for Offred.

What is Gilead truly about?

If it's about men having power and women who are fertile being forced to have babies, then surely any men who are fertile would also be part of the plan and would be forced to rape the handmaids? The fertility issue can't just be about the women as men (including the Commander) are also infertile.

Is it just as simple as men having power ? Or men in power not admitting that the fertility issue affects them as well?

Male infertility is not acknowledged in gilead.

I think it's about men blaming women for what's happened to the population's fertility. It'd not their problem. They're clearly not tackling the male fertility issue - hence the Commander's wife knows he might be infertile, so she suggests Nick. But clearly the a commander himself is oblivious - doesn't think it's possible or doesn't care. In his world, the women are to blame, and that's that.
Original sin all over again.
:)

Forgot to add, I think women like his wife know that they have to distance themselves from other women, or they'll be blamed too. So they treat the slave women appallingly to keep an obvious distance that the men about them can see.
Self-protection thing, she knows Offred is miserable, but she can't care about her, or she'll risk being exposed as 'just' another woman, and possibly reviled and abused too.

I thought it was quite an interesting episode, as it made me grapple quite hard with my own ideas.

(I have read the book and contributed up-thread or on thread 1, btw).

The bit that drew my attention was the repeat of statistics about carbon emissions eg. 70% fewer carbon emissions

Carbon emissions have fallen because:

Women aren't driving to work
Students aren't driving to university
No one is going on holiday anywhere
The cinema where Fred and Serena watched the film is now closed
Food is limited in variety, so fewer trucks going around
No one needs many new clothes, as they all wear one colour
There are fewer shops, only selling Gilead-accessories
Women aren't going shopping, visiting friends or doing activities
Newspapers and books are not being printed.
Men aren't going to work in universities, advertising agencies, cinemas or other 'ungodly' enterprises.
People aren't travelling and coming together to make art, music, debate, learn or simply connect as human beings.

Yet, we always think of fewer carbon emissions as a good thing? But when does reducing them stop being a good thing? How far do you go? Can any ideology become evil when it goes to far?

I am centre-left politically and generally think that regulation is a good thing, but this episode made me question at what point in the regulation vs personal choice balance it becomes a bad thing.

Also, having read 'Children of the Dust' as a child (though I think I skipped a lot as it was v scary!), I do wonder whether a truly huge environmental catastrophe would 'reset' people's ideas around what is acceptable/moral?

Did people notice that Channel 4 gave out a helpline number for people affected by the programme?

Yeah, I also thought when he said 'moved to a fully organic agriculture model' well, who is providing the manpower needed for that?

Maybe that's where regime-escapists like Luke were sent, to the fields. Maybe 'the colonies' don't really exist, after all if Gilead is a small isolated regime why are they clearing up big tracts of contaminated land? 'The colonies' could be code for agricultural slavery. Less scary sounding but still exhausting work that could kill you fairly quick. I think that was a model favoured by Chairman Mao - people who resisted the regime being sent to work the fields in terrible conditions.

Orlantina I didn't but possibly because Offred voiced her treatment as rape and physical abuse. Although that is what has happened in previous episodes I think it's the first time it's been spoken about by Offred.

What city are they in? They talk about the war in Florida when they get oranges, how far away would that be? They blew up Congress at the beginning so presumably Gilead is supposed to cover the whole US? Are we only seeing a small bit of it?

I think in Gilead, male infertility doesn't exist (in the minds of the men). And that infertility is held as always being the woman's fault - because they had occupied themselves in doing unwomanly pursuits e.g getting educated, having careers, controlling their own fertility via contraception...and in doing so had 'wilfully damaged' their fertility.

It's only relatively recently that it has been accepted that men might not be fertile. Look at Henry VIII's quest for a male child. It was never even considered that maybe he just wasn't that potent. In fact, it was George Boleyn's public declaration that the king 'wasn't up to the task' that effectively signed his death warrant.