The Handmaid's Tale Vol 2

[PacificDogwod]

I go to work and this is what happens: the previous thread fills up when I have pertinent things to say!

Hope nobody minds, I've taken the opportunity to start a new one before the Offspring demand food and the likes...

One of the masterful strikes of strategic genius of the new regime is the division and envy between everybody and everybody: men vs women, women in different roles vs other women, high ranking vs low ranking.
No solidarity is allowed - even the partnered Handmaids were half companion and have guard. Never knowing who might be an Eye and who to trust must be soul destroying.

I think Serena is quite a tragic figure - in the book and in the TV series. She must feel so betrayed by the ideals she fought for and that she is now kind of forced to uphold because otherwise what would her life be?? Admitting that she supporting a world view that while giving her some kind of social status by dint of her husband's role, considers her without value as she cannot have children would render everything she stands for invalid, and herself by extension.

The author who wrote a book about women being able to electrocute men by touch thereby causing a power change over (sorry, I cannot remember either name ) was talking on Radio Scotland today. She said the idea for her book came from when she wondered why so many mechanisms in society seem to go back to the fact that 'more men can throw a woman across a room than the other way around'. It's a depressing thought that physical strength underpins so much.

millifiori
I think for Serena Joy it's about sacrifice. She believes in the bigger ideals even if she might not like the reality for herself and other women. I think she believes they're doing what they have to do, morally and practically. I do think she's suffering though.

milliofiori I think Serena is just trying to survive. She has no choice either.

I don't think I've ever watched a programme with so many things to discuss.

Did people notice when Aunt Lydia called Jenine by her real name? After everything that she's done, she then goes and shows a moment of humanity...

Yes that was a really interesting scene. I think a lot of the characters are complex, not just plain evil (apart from the commander - he's just evil as far I've seen).

When that man said to the commander 'we must make sure they never forget their place again' (or words to that effect). Chilling.

Serena Joy told the aunt to get rid of the less perfect looking handmaids "quietly". I find it hard to believe that she was treating Janine with any compassion, she was just using any method possible to manipulate her into leaving quietly to protect herself from getting in trouble if the ambassador overheard Janine making a fuss. I don't think we saw any evidence that she followed through with her promise, did we?

As far as Luke being alive, I've not read the book but they've talked about wars going on, haven't they? Surely a relatively young/fit/healthy man would be useful to be forced to go fight & threatened with harm to June/their child if he didn't. Theoretically, if he was sent somewhere near the Mexican border he could've escaped & be working with the resistance. Didn't June talk to Emily a bit about her past? We know she was part of a resistance network before she decided it was too risky. Perhaps part of that is identifying who's ended up where with a view to reuniting them with their loved ones when possible. It would be possible for Luke to have given a description of June & that's been used to identify her so he could find out she's safe. The writing a note does seem a little suspicious but I suppose it could be so Luke is sure it's from her. I just want so badly for the handmaids to be rescued, I can't stand the thought it could be a trap!

The trading issue, could it be that the women will be rented, rather than sold? They could be sent to Mexico until they've had a baby & then brought back again either to a new commander or sent to the colonies if they've not behaved. I suspect they'd be supervised by Gilead-trained aunts & it would only be the best behaved/most brain washed ones sent so they'd still be under the power of Gilead & too scared to speak up.

For me, one of the things that is making this such a good adaptation is the details - like the clothing. They have taken the colour coding of the book, and added a layer of complexity - the handmaids wear identical clothes, but the Wives have a range of styles to choose from, as long as they stick to the prescribed colour - though I assume even the wives have to choose styles that live up to the standards of modesty. I particularly liked Serena Joy's evening dress.

The way it is shot and the symbolism is fabulous, it's a film student's dream! I hope it wins all the awards as its a stunning piece of television.

I am curious how men are perceiving it, especially MRAs, hope it's not giving them ideas...

Good interview with Samira Wiley

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jul/04/samira-wiley-margaret-atwood-handmaids-tale-orange-new-black

This comment is from the btl discussion underneath that Guardian article about the racial element:

The show isn't about the truth of Gilead, but rather the truth of current society. I think it's far more powerful to see people of colour in the show, as it draws immediate visual comparisons to slavery. It makes it more shocking in a way than to have the racism play off screen by an aside of how all nonwhite people were segregated. Instead, seeing white women enslaved along with women of colour makes that immediate comparison with historic enslavement all the more visceral. I think it actually highlights modern racism better by showing it could happen to any woman, instead of just the demographic we're used to being disempowered.

I am curious how men are perceiving it

I think its going over our heads. I try to watch it - but aren't that bothered if I miss an episode. I don't know any other man that is watching it. The Lions tour on the other hand....

I find it hard to believe that she was treating Janine with any compassion, she was just using any method possible to manipulate her into leaving quietly to protect herself from getting in trouble if the ambassador overheard Janine making a fuss.

I'm not so sure. I think there certainly will have been an element of trying to get Janine to go quietly. But I also think that the aunts must have convinced themselves of the righteousness of their 'vocation', not only in terms of ensuring the survival of Gilead, but also as personal salvation for the individual women. According to her own lights, it makes sense to me that Aunt Lydia would have become fond of Janine - the previously fallen woman and difficult pupil who has become a compliant and fertile, if unpredictable and unstable, handmaid. And the infantilisation of the women as someone noted upthread, always referring to them as 'girls' along with the nomenclature of 'aunts' would reinforce a sense of older women who are stern with their charges out of genuine affection and knowledge of what's best for them. I can see attachments being formed in those circumstances, albeit horribly distorted by an inhumane context.

As a long-time afficionado of the book, I'm enjoying the way it's been updated to take account of the way societies have changed. It makes sense to me that we've got the contact with Mexico - electronic communication means that the kinds of isolationism the author envisaged in the 1980s would look impossible now. My money's on the ambassador's aide being part of the Mayday network - ever the optimist, I'm hoping he managed to have a quiet word with Nick, found out June's real name, did some internet research, and worked out who she was. Perhaps Mexico is some kind of Mayday HQ from where a liberation attempt will be launched - in which case it would have made sense for Luke to have made his way there after his escape. I do hope it's that, and not that the aid is about to betray June.

I didn't see the 'children of Gilead' thing coming. It was heartbreaking at the end of a difficult episode. Like a pp upthread, I also think that whatever deal is being done (hopefully a cover for a liberation attempt) it'll be based on renting, not buying, handmaids.

I'm really hoping we see more from the Mayday network very soon - if not, well, the danger is that June and the others will adapt to the new normal.

Renting Handmaids make much more sense. Thanks for explaining AGnu and Mornington

My DH said he doesn't understand it, he watches it with me but he just says it's all really weird. I'll have to ask him what it is he finds strange.

cad
" I don't know any other man that is watching it. The Lions tour on the other hand...."

My DH is watching it and enjoying it as much as I am.

It's gripping, but only for me, not my DH. He just thinks it's all a bit disturbing and all the whispering irritates him! Ffs.
I think it's much more interesting for women because that lack of control, lack of power, subservient, overlooked feeling is something that we've all struggled with to some degree at some point. There are women now in the world in situations not dissimilar to Offred. Madness.
I find the religious aspect interesting. The Commander's blind faith and zealot-level ideology is the most disturbing thing about it, because this whole new society is founded on that agreement between (mostly) men that women should behave in a particular way based on extreme religious beliefs, and that their sacrifice is acceptable. And they can overlook the inhumanity and cruelty of everything they're doing because they believe it is God's way...
All the ritualistic talking is so chilling, particularly when the Commander and his wife were being shown having a pre-Gilead shag at an (initially) fairly sexy level, but even then they had all this weird stuff that they felt they had to say...that was a bucket of cold water!
Anyone else think of Trump and his dislike, disapproval and disdain for women, and his viewing of them as sex objects? It only takes one man in a position of great power to influence enough people to follow his lead down a very dark path...makes you think.
I'm definitely hooked. And as someone in the thread has already said, I'm glad they took out the racism aspect. This is about women. All women. Watching it, you're reminded of occasions where it's not far enough from reality. Gilead should be entirely fanciful, not a grim if distant possibility.

Just my thoughts lol. :)

My DH is watching it with me too - he is as hooked as I am! But he also hates all the whispering. He wears a hearing aid and is finding it really tough to hear even with the volume way up.

I'm saddened to read the posts saying that men aren't enjoying it. I enjoy drama about male characters; why can't men enjoy drama about female characters?

I can also watch film and TV about the oppression of Jewish people or black people, for example, and empathise with them despite not being Jewish or black myself.

Perhaps it's uncomfortable viewing for men as they realise it's not too far from the privilege they experience in the real world.

Wiifit
Cross posts, glad your DH is enjoying it too!
The whispering is a bit annoying isn't it. We sometimes put on the subtitles (don't want to turn it up too much as the other sounds are then too loud and disturb the baby!)

The commander is supposed to be an uber-religious fanatic. He set up this society with horrific penalties for breaking rules - the women are whipped and maimed into submission, dissenters and criminals are publicly hanged, beaten to death by handmaids, sent to the colonies. He has an Eye in his own house checking compliance. Yet he flouts the rules, allows his handmaids to read, play scrabble, breaks the Ceremony rules by fondling his handmaid. Then he allows her to kiss him. Will they have extra-ceremonial sex?

What a total hypocrite.

AnotherEmma I think you're right about why men find it uncomfortable viewing - I suspect that they don't want to have those conversations where we ask them what it is about this historical power-play that men have got going on against us...
It's so ingrained and automatic that I suspect most don't even question it. Or maybe don't feel that they can question it...
:)

Why did Offred kiss the commander?

noble
"Then he allows her to kiss him."
He didn't allow her to kiss him! He asked (=told) her to.
Lucy
Because she had to - see above.

She brushed her teeth furiously afterwards, remember.

Unfortunately DH hasn't been around to watch it. But we have talked about it and he said something interesting - that men don't view pregnancy in the same way women do. There is this culture in our society right now that children are a women's desire / biological imperative / however you want to put it. Just look at couples where the woman gets accidentally pregnant - plenty of people say 'oh do you think she trapped him' but don't say 'do you think he deliberately didn't wear a condom'. Sex is similar, there's this culture that women want it really, they just say they don't because cocktease.

So a woman watches it and gets this gut wrenching reaction of how awful, to be sexually enslaved and be forced to get pregnant....whereas a man might watch it and deep down think well on some level she's probably enjoying it / complicit.

I don't know if I've communicated that well...thought it was interesting though if you can get my meaning through the garble.

Wasn't sure why she turned back. At the door she looked angry, the smiled as if she'd thought of something then turned back to the room and asked to stay. Wasn't able to pick up on why