Three Girls (BBC 9pm)

[ASauvingnonADay]

Looking forward to watching this tonight. Feel it might be one to watch with your teenagers..

So there's a lot of talk on this thread about how the police and social workers failed these girls, but there really doesn't seem to be much talk about the people who perpetrated the crimes and the fact that they are primarily to blame.

If a type of crime is perpetrated very largely by one group (I don't know the figures but I have seen suggestions that 90% of street grooming gang are Muslim Asians) and also very largely against children of a different ethnicity and religion to them (again I don't have the figures but this seems to be generally accepted), is this not something which need to be looked at, discussed, and tackled? Or is it best to focus all the angst on the "othering" of the victims and the failings of the authorities?

Shabir Ahmed: the Rochdale sex gang ringleader who blamed white community for not looking after girls

Shabir Ahmed, the man at the heart of the conspiracy carried on a secret affair with the white teenager who acted as his recruiter.

For a year he lived in fear that people in his own community might find out about the relationship and ostracise him

On every occasion the couple had sex he would “go home, say two units of prayer and ask Allah forgiveness for doing wrong”.

He told the jury that fellow Pakistanis would regard him as having “infested” their community by sleeping with a white girl. “It’s not just them who are racist. We are racist too”.

Ahmed, who could not be named during the original trial, cut a belligerent figure in the courtroom, hurling insults at the judge and prosecution barristers and claiming he was the victim of a police-led conspiracy.

He dismissed the allegations against him as “white lies” made up by girls who had built up a profitable business empire by working as prostitutes.

“They were clever girls,” he told the jury. “If they’d gone on Lord Sugar’s Apprentice programme they would have won.

“They knew more Pakistanis than I as a Pakistani know. They knew what they were doing. They were earning good money”.

But for all his bravado he was unable to refute one crucial piece of evidence about DNA found on the clothing of a girl he raped and later trafficked around the north-west.

The defendant came to Britain as a boy in 1967. He settled in Oldham and raised a family, but has been separated from his wife since 2000.

He began the cycle of sexual abuse by plying his 15-year-old victim with vodka and then raping her above a takeaway restaurant in Heywood, Rochdale.

“It’s part of the deal,” he told her. “I bought you vodka, you have to give me something”.

He once threatened to have the teenager killed unless she got into his car, and on another occasion forced her to have sex with another man as a “treat”.

Ahmed blamed the white community for allowing teenage girls to go around unsupervised, so that at a young age they were “trained” in both sex and drinking.

“When they come to us they are fully trained and they start their own business,” he said.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/shabir-ahmed-rochdale-sex-gang-ringleader-blamed-white-community/

Of course people have to be careful not to be racist! Racial prejudices hinder actual real investigations in to real causes, not merely perceived causes.

Yes, in this case, and other cases, Asian men were the perpetrators. But we should be no more prejudiced towards Asian cultures than we are towards other cultures where (often systematic) child abuse has occurred.

By all means investigate and question, why in particular cases abuses, went unreported or unnoticed by the communities they occurred amongst. (Equally by all means question how victims are treated). But do not use this as an argument against immigration or to add fuel to the fire of existing cultural and racial prejudices.

It seems some on this thread are weighting the contributing factors in this case to their own political and prejudiced ends.

If a type of crime is perpetrated very largely by one group (I don't know the figures but I have seen suggestions that 90% of street grooming gang are Muslim Asians) and also very largely against children of a different ethnicity and religion to them (again I don't have the figures but this seems to be generally accepted), is this not something which need to be looked at, discussed, and tackled? Or is it best to focus all the angst on the "othering" of the victims and the failings of the authorities?

Of course it needs to be looked at, discussed and tackled. However it does not need to be used as a prejudiced political stick to beat Asian communities with. Which is what happens when you start using the occurrence of crimes such as this to argue for a hard Brexit and against immigration and multiculturalism, as has happened in this thread.

For a year he lived in fear that people in his own community might find out about the relationship and ostracise him

So if he would've been ostracised if found it, it's obviously not a 'cultural' problem is it

Using the occurrence of crimes to fuel racial prejudices shuts down discussion and creates further division between communities. What is more this creates further othering of young girls. It never helps.

For a year he lived in fear that people in his own community might find out about the relationship and ostracise him

So if he would've been ostracised if found it, it's obviously not a 'cultural' problem is it

I really don't think its okay to take one sentence in a newspaper article and use it to dismiss a very difficult and complex problem which is ruining the lives of many children.

Are you really trying to say that, despite the high % of Muslims from Pakistan perpetrating these crimes, there is no cultural element? I find that a very hard argument to follow.

Are you really trying to say that, despite the high % of Muslims from Pakistan perpetrating these crimes, there is no cultural element? I find that a very hard argument to follow.

I'm saying that the vast majority of child abusers are white men, and nobody claims that's "cultural".

You didn't answer my point, either. How is it cultural when their own culture ostracises them?

He told the jury that fellow Pakistanis would regard him as having “infested” their community by sleeping with a white girl. “It’s not just them who are racist. We are racist too”.

Of course it's cultural, he wouldn't have been ostracized because they were horrified by his behavior (maybe some are-I don't know) but because the girls are white.

By all means investigate and question, why in particular cases abuses, went unreported or unnoticed by the communities they occurred amongst. (Equally by all means question how victims are treated).

And investigate why it is occurring in the majority of case amongst Pakistani Musims? I really don't think we should just focus on the responses to crimes, we need to look at the criminals.

islets. My understanding of that was that he would have been ostracised for having a relationship with a white girl. The attitude toward the girls was cultural and part of the reason why he would have been ostracised. White girls = dirty sluts, sleeping around and drinking= shame on him for engaging with them. So yes it is cultural.

I'm saying that the vast majority of child abusers are white men, and nobody claims that's "cultural".

On the contrary, people are crying out about the culture of mysogynu and rape culture. It absolutely is cultural and nobody is shy about saying it.

wood I'm not arguing against investigations. I'm arguing against prejudice.

Yes, investigate how the criminals came to commit these crimes. And tackle this. But do not use these cases to fuel racial prejudices or to support conclusions which arise from prejudice and not careful investigation.

Using the occurrence of crimes to fuel racial prejudices shuts down discussion and creates further division between communities.

I agree with you on this, but I think the situation is more complicated in that people who try to talk about the actuality of these crimes, in the vast, majority, taking place in the Pakistani Muslim community get accused of fueling racial prejudices by doing so. So it's a bit of a vicious circle, isn't it?

If anyone who tries to discuss the origins of these crimes is accused of stoking racism, then who is left to discuss the problem? No-one, as as soon as they raise the issue, they are slurred as racist, and on and on.

Myself, I do not feel that trying to understand and tackle the reasons why one particular community are engaing in a particular type of child abuse makes me racist. As I said earlier, I think we should treat all crimes and criminals in the same way. I don't think we are.

How about just imagingin if there were gangs of white men in towns all around the country systematically targeting Muslim girls for abuse, rape, and violence. Try to think how we would be discussing that.

Would people want to steer any discussion away from the perpetrators and want to focus on the victims and the failures of the authorities?

Would anyone who tried to suggest there was a racial or cultural element to the crimes be accused of stoking racist divisions?

Yes, investigate how the criminals came to commit these crimes. And tackle this. But do not use these cases to fuel racial prejudices or to support conclusions which arise from prejudice and not careful investigation

clarity xpost. I agree with you completely on this.

I'm a little behind and only watched the first episode last night so apologies if this has already been raised.. but what was the role of Holly's 'boyfriend' at the start? Is he aware of what was going on and the other lads in that house?

Women and girls are treated as goods and chattels in many religions, including Islam and Catholic . The abusers, be they catholic priest or Muslim, used the fear of not being believed by the police for soo long.
It was a powerful drama, and the young actresses were excellent.

Possible side-track, ignore if you wish.

Whilst I've been on this thread, I've been thinking a lot about this talk by Jonathon Haidt who is a social psychologist and Professor of Ethical Leadership at New York University's Stern School of Business.

heterodoxacademy.org/2016/10/21/one-telos-truth-or-social-justice/

The talk focuses on the current political situation on American university campuses from the perspective of moral and social psychology, but I think some of the points he makes about belief systems are very relevant to this issue and indeed this thread. In particular - motivated reasoning, truth v social justice (this is more specifically about the purposes of universities, but is still relevant) and possibly the sacredness and blasphemy ideas.

nb You have to scroll down the page to find the video of the talk.

'Its not just them who are racist, we are racist too' straight from the horses mouth.

He would of been shamed because a large amount of Pakistanis in this country look down on white people and see having sex with white women including raping them as not something a respectable Muslim man should be doing. Not because a culture which has throughout history attempted to practise sexual imperialism against its 'enemies' from Sihks to Yahzidis to White Brits is suddenly opposed to rape.

People want to believe every Pakistani and Asian Muslim in this country is the token Westenised Pakistani middle class doctor they deal with in their own lifes. But thats not Pakistani culture, thats British culture with a brown face. Prehaps with a more controlled rate and quality of immigration that would be everyones experience of Pakistani immigration instead of just middle class people.

I hear a lot of talk about the issue been tackled but how? By portraying racially motivated sexual abuse of vunerable white girls as an EDL conspiracy for a couple of decades? By ignoring what the people who live in these communities say once you are forced to admit you was wrong? By trying to get a football presenter sacked for describing a tackle as 'rape'? We tried your multicultural way for enough years, now its time to try our way.

Not all cultures are equal, if we allow an inherently bigoted culture to infiltrate our own then you might as well piss a couple of hundreds years of progress up the wall. Culture is not colour. Migrants coming from Islamic theoracies MUST be forced to adopt Western values of universal human rights, equality and secularism.

So those saying that the main problem which needs to be addressed here is the way these girls were/are viewed by the police and other authorities, does that mean we don't need to worry if these crimes go on as long as the police, social services etc deal adequately with them once the victims come forward? Isn't that too late really?

Also, please read this article:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2146573/Jessica-loving-middle-class-upbringing-So-did-victim-Rochdale-sex-gang.html

The police were called and she seized the chance to blow the whistle on the gang. At that point, she told officers she had been attacked by two men, and an investigation began which involved taking DNA swabs from Jessica’s clothes and the men she accused

For the first time, Jessica reluctantly told her parents a half-truth about the police inquiry. She said she had been raped by a man in the town

Her mother cannot erase the memory of that terrible day. ‘When Jessica told us, we were so sad. We felt her innocence had been taken away. At that point we thought it was a one-off incident, although deeply traumatic for her.’

But if Jessica hoped informing the police would bring her suffering to an end and the rapists to justice, she was bitterly mistaken.

Just two weeks later, one of the gang, 41-year-old Abdul Aziz, started pestering her again on her mobile. Other gang members found out where she lived and watched her house from their taxis and delivery vans. Amid threats from the gang that they would tell her family she’d had sex with men for money, she felt compelled to visit her tormenters again.

What followed next is a scenario few will understand. For soon, Jessica was back in the gang’s clutches and being raped by more men. As she explained in a quiet voice at the trial: ‘They threatened to batter me and tell my mum the truth about me. I was scared to say no to them.’

Finally, having assessed Jessica’s allegations, the Crown Prosecution Service told the police that there was no prospect of a successful conviction. It reached that view despite DNA linking her directly to the 59-year-old gang leader.

As a result, scandalously, the gang remained free to continue grooming other schoolgirls for another two long years.

In the news this morning:(

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39953322

Those actresses were incredible, especially Ruby.
When she was sat with her mum saying "its sad what happened to the baby". Just heartbreaking. What they did to amber was awful, hanging her out to dry because she didn't come across as the vulnerable victim. That poor girl, maybe its naive but i hope they can form a supportive friendship as they get older. Amber was not to blame, the manipulation and abuse is so ingrained. So complicated. When i look back at the girls at my school 13/14 year olds sleeping with older men, we just thought they were quite cool for having older boyfriends. Now i look back and i think "sick fucks".

Until women are considered as equals, not to be used and thrown away it will continue. I employed a 17 year old British born but from a pakistani family, his own mother told him to practice on the white girls but marry the good pakistani girl he had chosen for him. The girls he worked with did a good job of trying to reverse that view, but it was so ingrained.
Sadly, I don't think this will be something that goes away. I really hope these dinosaur views don't get passed down.

I'm still struggling with some of the posts on this thread.

Excellent acting and such honest performances.
I'm fairly sure only two of the men convicted are still inside, the rest must be rehabilitated.....
The ringleader (Daddy) was tying up the court's funded by taxpayers natch fighting deportation to Pakistan.

Fanny Yesterday's Manchester Evening News.

All but two of the Rochdale grooming gang have been released from prison - and four of them are mounting yet another taxpayer-funded legal bid to fight plans to deport them to Pakistan

In the latest in a string of publicly-funded court cases, immigration judges rejected their appeals in February.

But now it has emerged all four are mounting yet another legal challenge. They have been given permission to take their cases to the Court of Appeal

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rochdale-grooming-gang-jail-deported-13057964?service=responsive#ICID=sharebar_twitter