War and Peace [CAUTION: SPOILERS]

[QuizteamBleakley]

Anyone watching? All British actors appearing here...

O dear, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.

She is! She must have a fab agent! I quite liked her in Downton but she was by no means the best in it and now she's in everything! ceebeebee go to the cinema on your own! That's what I do after I used up my 'after all I do for you, you won't even do this one thing for me' card to get my DS to come to Cinderella (Lily James again!) with me and it was wasted because there were loads of adult women in there on their own

I went to see Cinderella with dd last time but admit that it was really for me and dd was convenient as an excuse to go! Do is too young for zombies though so I might have to go in my own!

I too LOVED the show and wonder if anyone knows where to find the 2007 and 1979 adaptations. Any ideas?

Dream, look on Amazon for the 2007 version.

Googling the Bondarchuk film version I came across a great review of w&p adaptations past and present by Clive James in the Guardian. Sadly I can't do links but i can recommend it!

O yes, I read that article today and found it very moving.
It sounds like the 2007 version might be quite good, I can imagine Anthony Hopkins as a Pierre. The DVD on Amazon is expensive, but I am tempted.
O, and what about the music (the 2016 production)? No one has mentioned but It was outstanding.

Clive James in the Guardian. Interesting article as PPs said but I thought it was funny how he thinks we should all love Natasha and yet lots of us are saying we haven't liked her either on the screen or the page. I guess she's a man's ideal of womanhood rather than a realistic woman?

Yes you could be right giddy: I have never loved Natasha.

I identified with Sonya and thanked my lucky stars I was born in this time.

The 2007 version is not at all faithful to the book, great liberties are taken. But I forgive those responsible mainly because Alessio Boni looks just as Prince Andrei should look, imo.
As does Vyacheslav Tikhonov in the Bondarchuk film. I was less impressed with Bondarchuk himself. I think he was about twenty years too old to play Pierre.
Epic battle scenes, though.

I have fond memories of the 70s BBC version despite the battle scenes being a bit rubbish. They mostly consisted of a handful of troops, a couple of horses and a dog. Well, not quite that bad - but less than spectacular.

I must admit that I've been surprised at the hostility to the Rostovs in general and Natasha, in particular. Excuses have been made for the behaviour of the Kuragins and the Bolkonskys but the Rostovs have been roundly condemned.

I can't speak as to Natasha being a man's ideal of womanhood - in any case, she's barely out of her teens until the epilogue. But she doesn't infuriate me the way, for example Dickens's ideal women tend to do.
Admittedly, she does behave pretty badly over Anatole but I believe there are mitigating circumstances. I accept that not everyone will think they are enough to excuse her.

I don't dislike Natasha and I like the fact all the characters are allowed to be annoying in their own way, just as in life!

But she doesn't infuriate me the way, for example Dickens's ideal women tend to do.

True, I can't read Dickens because his heroines are so sappy. But maybe both Dickens and Tolstoy are idealising young women because that's when they were marriageable, once a woman was married and has children she becomes irrelevant (think TV series was kinder about the fate of Countess Rostov as well, in the book she seems to be waiting for death now her DH is dead).

I think the hostility to the Rostovs is partly because of the simplification of their story, e.g. I think one of the weaknesses of the TV series is that Nikolai's growth and maturation wasn't really properly shown so we didn't feel like he deserved Maria.

But the giddylimit he may have matured financially and supports his family instead of being a drain on them but Marya seems depressed at his lack of interest in her in the epilogue. He basically treats her appallingly and seems disgusted by her pregnant body. He also is resentful of Andres son living with them. He is still selfish IMO and still undeserving of Marya. Both Nicolai and Natasha still end up essentially selfish and jealous.

I don't love Natasha but I don't think any of her failings are her fault. She was idoliused and indulged by her parents, which meant they didnt protect her from the succession on older men parading through their door. In the epilogue, she sounds like a woman terrified of her own sexuality. It's all her parents fault.

Sonya Tolstoy doesn't paint anyone as flawless, does he? I like that, too.

thegiddylimit There may well be something in the idea of women being irrelevant and sidelined after marriage. And I'm not sure Tolstoy was particularly well-disposed towards women, in any case. And I also agree that Nikolai wasn't allowed to develop sufficiently.

It's the perennial problem when adapting huge novels, I suppose. Just what do you include and what should you leave out. I sure as hell wouldn't be any good at it - I'd include everything, go gazillions over budget and would end up with a ninety four hour series that nobody would want to watch.

But she doesn't infuriate me the way, for example Dickens's ideal women tend to do

Neither of Tolstoy or Dickens' heroines induce the same level of boredom as Jane Austen's 2 stock heroines - the feisty one and the flighty one.

I bought the BBC books version in Sainsbury's the other day. It is part of the penguin random house group if that means anything, but is this a simplified edition? I should hope it doesn't stray far from the original translation. The details which stand out so for to me are the names. Andrew instated of Andrei and Nicholas instead of Nikolai.

Try some of Tolstoy's short stories for poor views of women. But, on the other hand, the 19th C portrayal of women is so often the lens of the 'marriageable girl', whereas the portrayal of Dolly (Darya Alexandrovna) in Anna Karenina is one of the most-complete descriptions of a post-marriage, post-motherhood woman. Her feelings about her cheating spouse rival any MN thread in complexity...

Neither of Tolstoy or Dickens' heroines induce the same level of boredom as Jane Austen's 2 stock heroines - the feisty one and the flighty one.

Blimey, a bit uncalled for and inaccurate IMO but hey ho. FWIW, I've read most of Dickens' novels and love them. But I do think he had a bit of a blindspot when it came to 'good' women. He seems to me, and I accept it is merely a personal opinion, to make them too good.

Anyway...

MaybeDoctor, I must read more Tolstoy I know next to nothing of his work apart from W&P and AK. But I agree about poor Dolly.

Agree re Dolly, and also Anna Karenina's psychological breakdown is portrayed in a very convincing way (though not in way to make her likeable). One of Tolstoy's greatest strengths is characterisation and he could do both men and women.

Thomas Hardy's character assassination of his wife in his poetry put me off him for a long time, until I read his brilliant novels. I think they were all men of their times. Really they had to marry for status and found themselves living with strangers. Of course, this applied to the women too, but they had the added insult of a complete lack of voice, status or position.