War and Peace [CAUTION: SPOILERS]

[QuizteamBleakley]

Anyone watching? All British actors appearing here...

Wilhelm was an idiot, so I wouldn't be surprised. There was no actual fighting between Germany and Russia up to WW1 as far as I remember and I just realised that I have no knowledge at all about the eastern front during WW1.
I assume someone with Bismarck's background would have read W&P and soneone with Hitler's probably didn't.

Hitler was aware of Napoleon's defeat in Russia, and why, all of Europe was. But he thought the Germans were racially superior to the Russians and would easily beat them. He planned for a short summer campaign but then got distracted by events and didn't attack Moscow until October (a month later than Napoleon entered Moscow) when the weather had already turned. I guess Russia is so large it's difficult to comprehend and Hitler probably thought 'well, we have mechanised vehicles and airplanes' and never thought they'd have the same fate.

Yeah these dictators all think they're better than the last one, but they're all the same

Maybe they skipped over the war bit? Tolstoy does drone on a bit...

I am about to drop my war and peace name.

I chose it as it was the most poignant image to me, the unmarried Sonya serving the family tea from the samovar.

I absolutely hate her fate and how it is explained away. Poor Sonya.

The TV adaptation was less damning and all looked idyllic at the end.

I like to think that TV Sonya rebelled against her fate by clandestinely taking Dolokhov as her lover. Far better than to think she remained in love with Nikolai and was doomed to live on his charity forever.

That would be a happy ending

I think Denisov would be a nice Sonya husband, lisp and all

But oh yeah Dolokov as her lover!! I wonder what would become of her after Countess Rostov died? It was an enduring memory of the book for me too, the fate of Sonya. What a life. I didn't care for Natasha at all, in the book or the TV adaptation, but I felt for Sonya in both

Clearly she needs to shoot Nikolai, shag Dolokhov, and marry Denisov!

It is a hard fate and I don't understand why Tolstoy didn't have her marry someone else, or maybe live with Natasha and Pierre instead.
On the other hand, maybe it was more bearable back then to live with the man you love, his wife and their children in a vast country house than it would be nowadays in a 3 bed semi...

I believe that the characters were inspired by people from the older generation in Tolstoy's own family.

He had an unmarried aunt (who was devoted to him) who had been in love with Tolstoy's father. ( nb I read this on the internet and am no expert!)

What does happen to Sonya in the book? I assumed, from the TV adaptation, that she lives with Natasha's family?

No, as behoved the eldest son - Nikolai supported his mother and Sonya in his marital home...

And Sonya is pictured as sitting stoically by the samovar supplying the tea to one and all.

She basically is a nursemaid to old Countess Rostovas and to Nicholas' children. In an act of almost breathtaking crassness and lack of empathy, Natasha and Marya have a conversation about her, concluding that it's OK that she had given up her chance of happiness for Nicholas, only to be ditched to look after their senile mother because she doesn't feel love. She is a sterile flower. Not like the serial lover Natasha and the prudish Marya...

We need to stage an intervention

Slightly off topic but did Dockensian viewers spot Adrian Rawlins (Edward Barbary) as Pierre's prisoner friend?

Missing this already 😢.

SonyaAtTheSamovar I love your W+P name. That bit in the book really got to me too. Poor Sonya.

I think what happened to Sonya was probably very realistic for an unmarried woman of the time.

If it was anything like Britain, middle class women who didn't marry ended up living with relatives, acting as nursemaids and made very aware of the fact that they were a burden and a nuisance living off other people's charity.

Women's choices were so limited. Marry and have a family, or...be miserable. or marry and be miserable It's not like Sonya could have trained and got a job. That wasn't an option.

On another topic, I enjoyed Pierre and Natasha's kiss and thought it quite realistic - suitably passionate on his part

Yes, that would have been Charlotte Lucas's fate if Mr Collins hadn't come along. That is why her brothers are described as rejoicing at the match.

Mrs Bennett gets a terribly bad press for her eagerness to marry off her daughters, but she actually has very good reasons for doing so.

I'm sure it's been mentioned here (I've not RTFT) but the actress playing Sonya plays Charlotte Lucas in Pride & Prejudice & Zombies. Is she doomed to never play a character who gets a happy ending in the romance department?

Yes, exactly, You can't look at these novels in a modern sense. There is no romance in them. If the couple get along, that's a bonus, but marriage was for procreation for the man and financial security for the woman. It was an arranged marriage. My family are Indian, and my parents met and married within a month. Love didnt even come into it. I asked my mum about it once and she said she was of marriageable age, and my dad wanted to get married and liked the look of her. That was it! This is what it was proably like for the women in Austens day, and in Tolstoys. The elopers, like Natasha and Lydia Bennet were probably the only true romantics, but they would have ended up destitute and disgraced.

Cerseiris I mentioned Sonya playing charlotte Lucas. My DH wants to go and see this because he has an unexplainable love of zombie movies and its probably the only one id go and see with him! Ill tell you what she's like

I'm intrigued by Oride and Zprejufice and Zombies too. Too bad dh probably won't want to see it so I'll have to wait for dvd release. It has Lily James in again. Why had she become hot property all of a sudden? I don't mind her but she's everywhere.