Any Buffy fans around to discuss some things that have annoyed me on rewatching?

[MrsBertMacklin]

Posting in Chat because this doesn't warrant a permanent thread. I fully admit to overthinking the issues below, I've been binge watching and may have lost perspective.

• Faith was made a slayer when Buffy died the first time. When she dies in Season 5, no mention of a duplicate Slayer, correct?

• The Principal in Season 7 talks to Buffy about how he's looked through her file, why is her response not, 'you creepy fuck, what a breach of privacy, I left school 5 years ago'?

• Neither Buffy or Willow have regular jobs (Willow is never seen in employment). Who pays for Willow's flights to England for rehab, their weapons, various house repairs (don't tell me Buffy could get insurance for accidental damage / civil unrest with her claims history), Dawn's school books etc.?

• When Spike goes to get himself restored to his former self: why exactly does that Demon con him and actually give him his soul? If it was a good demon I could understand it's ultimately setting him on the road to redemption, but it's not.

• Why did Joss Whedon make Angel Irish, when it must have been obvious within 5 syllables that David B's Irish accent was the worst thing in the world?

• Kennedy: I was all for Willow finding someone else after Tara, why on earth did they make that person such an utter knob? Is she meant to have some redeeming features / be perfect for Willow and the actor ballsed it up?

• After Joyce died, why didn't Buffy's dad make a single appearance, surely they could have found some reason / decent plot to make this happen, it's so clanging for me that a parent, no matter how absent, wouldn't even stop by once after his childrens' mother died suddenly.

Apologies if these have been answered. I can't help myself

• Faith was made a slayer when Buffy died the first time. When she dies in Season 5, no mention of a duplicate Slayer, correct?

When Buffy dies the first time round the line passes to Kendra and then on through her.

• The Principal in Season 7 talks to Buffy about how he's looked through her file, why is her response not, 'you creepy fuck, what a breach of privacy, I left school 5 years ago'?

Yeah, that's super creepy.

• Neither Buffy or Willow have regular jobs (Willow is never seen in employment). Who pays for Willow's flights to England for rehab, their weapons, various house repairs (don't tell me Buffy could get insurance for accidental damage / civil unrest with her claims history), Dawn's school books etc.?

I think part of the funding comes from the watchers council, particularly in the early series. Willow's parents are funding her through college and Giles has money too. Also, don't forget that Xander handily learns over night how to be an excellent carpenter, electrician, plumber and decorator

• When Spike goes to get himself restored to his former self: why exactly does that Demon con him and actually give him his soul? If it was a good demon I could understand it's ultimately setting him on the road to redemption, but it's not.

It's like the old 'be careful what you wish for' thing. The demon does it because it's not the interpretation that Spike intended. He doesn't care about the consequences - good or bad.

• Why did Joss Whedon make Angel Irish, when it must have been obvious within 5 syllables that David B's Irish accent was the worst thing in the world?

the same reason he made Spike English

• Kennedy: I was all for Willow finding someone else after Tara, why on earth did they make that person such an utter knob? Is she meant to have some redeeming features / be perfect for Willow and the actor ballsed it up?

ugh, couldn't stand that relationship either

• After Joyce died, why didn't Buffy's dad make a single appearance, surely they could have found some reason / decent plot to make this happen, it's so clanging for me that a parent, no matter how absent, wouldn't even stop by once after his childrens' mother died suddenly.

he is increasingly absent over the years. I think this does happen. It happened in my family.

My question. The much prophesied vampire with a soul. Is it Spike (who fought for and won his soul) or is it Angel (who had it shoved back in against his will and gives it up at the drop of a hat)?

thetravellinglemon I hate to say I think the prophecy is about Spike.

phoenix - sorry, I just don't get that. I thought they were very sweet, but they never really convincingly pull off sexual attraction. I think it's the way it's written - they had to make the later bit of that storyline contrast with what's going on with Buffy and Spike, and with Anya (I love the bits where Anya is making inappropriate comments about Xander, blissfully unaware everyone around her is privately wanting to vomit). So they play down the sexy bits.

One could write a lot about Joss Whedon's woman issues, I reckon. And people have.

I agree Willow was brilliant as the Big Bad, though. I loved those bits. And I love how they do her having a showdown with Giles.

That moment when Giles has taken Willow back to Ye Olde England for the wiccans, and he's shown riding a rather nice piebald horse across the countryside, cracks me up every time.

Joss Whedon's woman issues? Why are people writing about that?

Is it because he's one of very few men who actually writes popular shows with plenty of prominent female characters so people actually have something to write about?

No, because no one is perfect, I think.

He's very keen to say he's a feminist, which is in a way great, and in a way it makes you look at what's not so good.

I love his stuff, but I do think there are valid points to make against him. He does have slightly screwed up views on women and sex, I reckon - if you look at Inara or Echo, as well as Buffy's relationship with Spike, which I think is hot but also scary. Someone said he writes strong women in order to show them being punished, which is a bit dark, but thought-provoking.

In any case, I don't think 'he writes strong women' or 'he writes lots of female characters' means he should be beyond discussion. You could say the same about Game of Thrones.

Re-watching and half way through series 2.

I am newly upset and annoyed by how Xander is treating Cordelia and what an idiot he is being still mooning over Buffy and now it appears over Willow. Move on man!

BTW OP, YABU. Any thread to do with Buffy is most certainly deserving of being permanent .

he writes strong women in order to show them being punished, which is a bit dark, but thought-provoking.

Also a bit harsh and unfair, don't you think? A lot of his characters end up 'punished' in one way or another because he writes a lot involving battles between good and evil. No one tends to come out unscathed.

I guess Inara is a problem because she's a happy hooker. But being able to pick out issues with individual characters or plot lines doesn't mean it's fair to say he has woman issues!

I hated the Buffy/Spike relationship. I thought it was horrible and abusive. But Buffy was pretty ground down at that point.

I do love a good Buffy thread, even if it is to pick apart plot holes or discussion of season 7.

I find the Spuffy relationship problematic as Spike tried to rape Buffy in the Seeing Red episode. Up to that point I actually quite like Spike as a character but I felt very uncomfortable with his redemption through to the end of the series.

It's to reconcile my love of Buffy, all things Joss in general, and that one episode.

I thought it unfair that Anya (my favourite later season character) gets stood up at the altar

Xander tried to rape Buffy in The Pack then pretends not to remember and never apologises

That pissed me off

Willow didn't live at home at Uni she moved I to halls!

In early s4 episodes you see her being annoyed as her roommate is a loud party type and she has to find other places to study.

Then after the cathy episode her and Buffy room share.

It isn't until Joyce gets sick and Buffy moves home that willow may have moved home herself-I don't remember any mention of it. I assume she is still in halls though as her mum isn't mentioned as she is in s2& 3.

In EP 1 of s4 they mention the Uni campus being a few miles away, out of town.

But this is a continuity error with what Cordy says in s1 EP 1 where she implies sunny d is a small town with only a block or so of a town centre.

There's also one episode at a beach (s5 ep1!) which is never mentioned or visited before or after. Really? Teens who live near a beach but never go there?

Actually I've remembered it is in go fish s 2 too.

noble - no, I don't think it is unfair, especially with reference to Buffy, where Buffy, Anya and Willow (and Tara!) all get pretty heftily smacked down and Giles and Xander much less so.

I should say, though, I'm one of those people who likes picking holes in things I enjoy, so it's not that I am saying he's worthless as a writer. It's just not very interesting to discuss this stuff with reference to someone who's a real sexist bore. It's much more interesting to think about why something great is also a bit flawed. IMHO.

I forgot about that episode, Yonic. I wonder why that one doesn't bother me as much as Spike's assault. Maybe because of how I felt about the characters; I never thought much of Xander.

Anya and Willow would be better compared to Spike in their character development and smackdown than Giles and Xander, who are more on a par with say, Dawn?

Tara's death wasn't punishment for her character, in the same way that Joyce's death wasn't a punishment for hers.

My question. The much prophesied vampire with a soul. Is it Spike (who fought for and won his soul) or is it Angel (who had it shoved back in against his will and gives it up at the drop of a hat)?

What is the prophecy? I hated Season 7 and so have never rewatched it, which might explain my ignorance!

How do you mean, Giles and Xander are on a par with Dawn?

I think I agree with you about Tara.

But I do still think he has issues with women and sex. Possibly more obviously so in Dollhouse, but it's there.

The prophecy was the Shanshu prophecy that cropped up in Angel (series 2???). I'm hazy on the details, and I'm not sure whether that's because the info in Angel was hazy or because I have forgotten something. I do remember that part of the prophecy was that the vampire with soul would become a man.

In a later episode of Angel (series 4???) Angel does indeed become a mortal human (can't remember how?!?!?) when Buffy comes to visit him (can't remember why!! - must re-watch!). His becoming mortal has negative consequences for the fight against evil, so he and Buffy decide to undo it/go back in time so it never happened (again, can;t remember all the details - this is really bad!). As part of this, she will forget it has ever happened (during his mortal episode they had got back together and were totally in love), although he will remember. Quite whether this is the Shanshu prophecy coming true or not was never investigated in Angel.

I know that the cancellation of the series was announced mid way through series 5, so Joss and the writers had to cram a whole load of stuff in and try to get things tidied up. Whether the Shanshu prophecy would have been revisited later, had they had more time, is an interesting question. And would it have applied to Spike or to Angel? (As an aside, I hated what they did to Spike in series 5 of Angel - total lack of continuity in his character. Just rubbish.)

Ahh okay, never watched Angel (keep meaning to, especially since I think it's free for me on Amazon). I won't ask how Spike could be the subject, I'll spoil it for myself when I finally do watch it

'the vampire with soul' ?!?!? So that would be the vampire version of James Brown, I guess....

'the vampire with a soul'.

The prophecy is also referred to in the first few series of Buffy though isn't it?

Deapite the ambiguity I would say The Shanshu prophecy refers to Angel, not Spike. It was written for 'Angel' not Buffy and js the driving plot point for the final three series.

Whedon is not the Feminist God he is often made out to be, and that misdirected adulation rubs a lot of people up the wrong way.