Any Buffy fans around to discuss some things that have annoyed me on rewatching?

[MrsBertMacklin]

Posting in Chat because this doesn't warrant a permanent thread. I fully admit to overthinking the issues below, I've been binge watching and may have lost perspective.

• Faith was made a slayer when Buffy died the first time. When she dies in Season 5, no mention of a duplicate Slayer, correct?

• The Principal in Season 7 talks to Buffy about how he's looked through her file, why is her response not, 'you creepy fuck, what a breach of privacy, I left school 5 years ago'?

• Neither Buffy or Willow have regular jobs (Willow is never seen in employment). Who pays for Willow's flights to England for rehab, their weapons, various house repairs (don't tell me Buffy could get insurance for accidental damage / civil unrest with her claims history), Dawn's school books etc.?

• When Spike goes to get himself restored to his former self: why exactly does that Demon con him and actually give him his soul? If it was a good demon I could understand it's ultimately setting him on the road to redemption, but it's not.

• Why did Joss Whedon make Angel Irish, when it must have been obvious within 5 syllables that David B's Irish accent was the worst thing in the world?

• Kennedy: I was all for Willow finding someone else after Tara, why on earth did they make that person such an utter knob? Is she meant to have some redeeming features / be perfect for Willow and the actor ballsed it up?

• After Joyce died, why didn't Buffy's dad make a single appearance, surely they could have found some reason / decent plot to make this happen, it's so clanging for me that a parent, no matter how absent, wouldn't even stop by once after his childrens' mother died suddenly.

Giles, Xander and Dawn are all there as main characters, but they don't have a dark side (that I can remember). They don't get 'smacked down' particularly. (Xander's eye aside).

Willow, Anya, Spike (and I'd add Faith and Angel) are all much more complex characters. Horrible things happen to them, but they do horrendous things too. It's not a woman v man thing, IMO.

What's the issue with sex in Dollhouse?

Dollhouse is the series he made after Buffy - the premise is that there are people whose memories can basically be wiped clean and reprogrammed, and they're sent out to do whatever clients want (not always sex, but it's a running theme). It's really interesting, but got cut short far too soon.

I've seen it, but I'm not sure how it shows Whedon has woman issues.

Giles, Xander and Dawn are all there as main characters, but they don't have a dark side (that I can remember).

What about when Giles murders Ben because Buffy won't?

Well, I think that writing a main character who is mentally raped is quite problematic. It's an extension of Tara's storyline in that way. The violence is also pretty telling - he likes writing broken women.

I am not saying that there aren't good things about Whedon, but I'm surprised you think nothing about any of his writing is problematic at all.

TheTravelling - ooh, yes, I definitely think Giles has a dark side. And then some.

Xander too, with the rape - and the point with the wedding is that he is afraid of his own dark side. He's afraid of turning into his father and hitting Anya. I think that is well written.

Dawn, I agree - but she's at a very different level altogether.

Interesting re Xander not marrying Anya to protect her. Hadn't thought of it like that.

Dawn is so meh, IMO

I dislike the Dawn character; I felt the introduction of Da?n was Buffy's 'jump the shark' moment.

Yy to Giles' dark side, it was always there, smouldering.

Giles murders Ben, and by extension Glory, because Buffy can't and because it needs to be done. He is protecting her, and thus his act is nothing like that of the others.

Well, I think that writing a main character who is mentally raped is quite problematic

Echo? I think a show which explores the morals of the set-up isn't necessarily condoning them.

Giles dabbled in black magic in his youth, didn't he? And was "Ripper"? Of course he has a dark side...

What about the episode where Buffy is in the psychiatric hospital? It never is clarified if it was the work of the demon the trio unleashed or whether Buffy really was in the hospital suffering delusions of being a vampire slayer all those years.

Hmm. I'm not sure I agree, noble. He is protecting Buffy, but it's still pretty dark - and he doesn't do it in hot blood, he explains it then smothers him. He's also Ripper.

I'm really sad they never did a Giles spin-off - though I can imagine it would actually have turned out terrible - because it would have been great. I love how his character goes from fuddy-duddy harmless librarian to kick-arse. I think it is also a really good illustration of how your perspective shifts - we're made to think he is really middle-aged in the early bits, and he seems to get younger as the series goes on, which I assume is to do with Buffy and the others recognising he's actually just another fallible adult who hasn't worked out all the answers yet.

But the darkest bit IMO is the bit where he is drugging Buffy and hypnotising her (another bit of classic Whedon 'fucking with a woman's mind and subjecting her to violence' where he's really showing how nasty the trope is). He ends up rejecting the Council, but it shows you how conflicted he is.

noble - no, true, I don't think it's condoning them either, but it's the way these themes run through his work, as if he can't figure out how to write a female character who isn't going to be subjected to something along these lines. It could be he's fascinated by broken women and wants to understand, but I'd still suggest there's something invasive about that, and certainly there's something worrying in the way he does it over and over.

Gah, two noble' in that post, sorry, I am clearly rambling!

Ooh loving all this. I LOVE Giles and always thought they should delve into his past/dark side more. I've tried a few 'Buffyverse' novels but have only really enjoyed one, and it really was a cracker. It's set at the start of Season 4 and goes in a really interesting direction. It's called The Lost Slayer and I thoroughly recommend it!! I thought it would have made a great Buffy film.

It's not a broken woman thing though, is it? Whedon writes lots of kickass characters who undergo trials. That's a superhero thing, his just happen to be women.

Batman didn't get to be where he is because of his happy childhood. Wolverine was experimented on to produce a killing machine (a bit like River in Firefly). You might as well go through all the comic books and ask why all the men are broken.

Great thread!

And yes to the Spuffy feels... I wasted FAR too much time reading filthy Spuffy fan fiction like this

About Giles suffering - Angelus tortures him doesn't he? You don't see it, but it's pretty protracted, not just a moment or two then Buffy saves him.

I think the difference with batman and wolverine is that the suffering creates the superhero, whereas with buffy, she's already strong, she's already a superhero, but then she is made to suffer.

Well, that's Monday night sorted: Buffyathlon. Starting with Hush. I'm going to have to go out of sync after that, due to perving on being interested, equally, in the acting styles of Nathan Fillion and James Marsters.

Yes, Angelus tortures Giles big-time at the end of season 2 - it's one reason Buffy doesn't tell any of the Scoobies that Angel is back because she knows it's a serious issue for the others but most of all for Giles. He remonstrates with her in a whole big 'he tortured me' speech in Series 3.

Actually Buffy's refusal to tell people stuff is a running theme through all 7 series. It's one of the reasons why she breaks up with poor old/dim old Riley and it's a constant in her relationship with Dawn - though that is mostly because in her eyes it is the way she is protecting Dawn. She does try to tell Willow about her relationship with Spike in Series 6 but Willow is in a state about Tara so it remains unsaid between them.

I'm just on a huge rewatch of both Buffy and Angel, in the correct order and have got DS (13) as obsessed as me. He does not take kindly to me hyperventilating at the sight of Spike though.

Series 7 isn't actually as bad as I thought it was when I rewatched it quickly before letting DS watch it so I could lust after Spike in private. I thought it was sadly disappointing (rubbish) the first time around but there are some good episodes, not least Spike on the crucifix - "Can we rest now, Buffy? Can we rest?". I think the understanding they reach by the end when she says 'I love you' and he says 'No, you don't but it's kind of you to say' is as good a declaration as you get in the Buffyverse. Not all puppy-dog Angel transformation before the end of Series 2, but a real, adult understanding.

Did anyone see James Marsters when he cropped up in Torchwood?

Pointy - although when you find out how the first Slayer was created, that's a pretty chilling and extremely brutal example of suffering. I thought it was interesting that yes on the one hand the Slayer is a girl (who hopefully lives long enough to become a woman) hence females are portrayed as strong (am reminded of the Faith line when she is asked why all the Slayers are girls 'I guess we're just better at it'). On the other hand, men created the Slayer and chose to do so by using a girl - probably because she is expendable. The deaths of so many girls and young women are acceptable simply because they are female.

Ooh, thanks song, will look.

noble - nope, sorry, I think it is gendered. It's women who get mentally raped. There's a sexualised element to violence against women in his work. Buffy, Tara, Echo and the others, Lilah in Angel ... he does go for that trope.

Male characters suffer horribly, but not in the same way.

Of course, you could argue that's simply realistic, and there is an element of that, but I think there's a line beyond which saying 'but the world is misogynistic so I'm just reflecting it' doesn't really work. Who is it said that if George Martin can imagine a world with dragons he might have tried imagining one without gratuitous rape?

I don't think Whedon is in Martin's universe, but I find it interesting all the same.

(Btw, I really hope I'm not coming across as attacking something you love, because I love Buffy too!)